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Fireman Iain

The future of Battery Electric Vehicles?

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2 hours ago, ancell said:

There is still a mountain to climb in the practical realities of finding somewhere to charge an electric vehicle in the UK.

As an example of the mountain to be climbed there are only Ford a founding partner in Ionity-the rapid charging network is opening its first 350kw rapid charge site and there are only three Ionity sites actually built at the moment-so much for the commitment of the car manufacturers.

The UK has 26000 known public chargers-thats laughably small given there were over 38 million vehicles registered last year.

There are only 3000 fast chargers available for public use at present(100kw in 1 hour charge)

Theres a long long way to go-if ever-for the BEV as a practical choice with present battery technology.

 

Seems fairly well covered to me

 

image.thumb.png.0e5f95336d4737a122541f1ecb036794.png

 

And where there are charging points, rarely are they all in use in my experience.

2 hours ago, Silversurf said:

 

At 100,000 miles these days, most conventionally powered cars are good for possibly at least another 50 - 100,00 miles and continue on till their demise under new owners, during which times, in most instances, there won't be massive expense needed other than general maintenance, wear and tear items etc.

 

Like cambelts and dual mass flywheels, clutches etc?

 

 

2 hours ago, Silversurf said:

However, take a top of the range electric car, say a BMW at 100,000+ miles ( or the annual equivalent ), would you fancy buying one knowing that a the battery may need replacing in the near future, when at the moment, used batteries for BMS's sell for £4,000 - £5,000  +fitting and programming. 😱

 

But we simply dont know that..... BMW Warrant the battery for 100,000 miles, theres a good chance it will do double that, furthermore it's the range that decreases the car still works. Yes it's a huge expense but in that 100,000 miles i will save £16,000 in fuel cost at todays prices, £5k for battery seems a no brainer. Add to that other servicing costs oil changes, spark plugs,. filters - electric all the way.

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8 minutes ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

Like cambelts and dual mass flywheels, clutches etc?


Turbo’s, leaking intercoolers, catalytic converters, DPF’s, Adblue systems...

 

I suspect there will be a strong market for non-OEM batteries for electric cars and costs will be more reasonable 

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1 minute ago, FrankBullet said:


Turbo’s, leaking intercoolers, catalytic converters, DPF’s, Adblue systems...

 

I suspect there will be a strong market for non-OEM batteries for electric cars and costs will be more reasonable 

Im sure youre right Frank, just like when catalytic converters were first fitted the profits of doom were everywhere, the reality is theyre pretty reliable and not as expensive as predicted thanks to the aftermarket.

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3 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

 

But we simply dont know that..... BMW Warrant the battery for 100,000 miles, theres a good chance it will do double that, furthermore it's the range that decreases the car still works. Yes it's a huge expense but in that 100,000 miles i will save £16,000 in fuel cost at todays prices, £5k for battery seems a no brainer. Add to that other servicing costs oil changes, spark plugs,. filters - electric all the way.

Since retired we do not do many miles now so it would suit us if a battery warranty was also based on time as well as miles since there is little chance we will cover another 100k miles. If it was 10 years then we could get a 5 year old car and keep it a bit without expecting a large cost.

 

You seem to have used 37 mpg to get your cost of £16k saved for fuel over 100k miles but you have not included the cost of charging the batteries. The only thing so far on here for charging costs is the following from Artleknock which seems to suggest about £1.30 covers 21 miles, or 6p per mile. If this cost is typical then over 100k miles the cost would be £6k but this could vary depending on where it is charged.

-----------------------------

Toniks night rate is 10.66p/kwh. That works out to about the cost of a litre of petrol to fill the battery, which gives 27 miles on my car or 21 if the heater and air con is on .

Not many cars will do better than 90 miles for the cost of a gallon.

-----------------------------------------------------

 

Edited by Paul1957

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59 minutes ago, Paul1957 said:

Since retired we do not do many miles now so it would suit us if a battery warranty was also based on time as well as miles since there is little chance we will cover another 100k miles. If it was 10 years then we could get a 5 year old car and keep it a bit without expecting a large cost.

 

You seem to have used 37 mpg to get your cost of £16k saved for fuel over 100k miles but you have not included the cost of charging the batteries. The only thing so far on here for charging costs is the following from Artleknock which seems to suggest about £1.30 covers 21 miles, or 6p per mile. If this cost is typical then over 100k miles the cost would be £6k but this could vary depending on where it is charged.

-----------------------------

Toniks night rate is 10.66p/kwh. That works out to about the cost of a litre of petrol to fill the battery, which gives 27 miles on my car or 21 if the heater and air con is on .

Not many cars will do better than 90 miles for the cost of a gallon.

-----------------------------------------------------

 

35 mpg and petrol is what I used and I did factor in the cost of battery charging. Our Outlander gives about 26 miles range costing around £1.60 to charge. There are many free charging points, some Tesco, ECOTRICITY on the motorways (ECOTRICITY is only temporary I believe), Premier Inns seem to have free charging too. Ignoring the free charging and if you pay 11p for economy 7 you would save £10,215 assuming fuel costs remain the same (unlikely), also factor in free road tax.

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I wonder how much recharging will cost when there are enough BEV's on the road for the government to try and claw back the billions they'll lose in tax off the ICE cars.

Given that around half the fuel cost goes in some sort of tax. 

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15 minutes ago, windowwatcher said:

I wonder how much recharging will cost when there are enough BEV's on the road for the government to try and claw back the billions they'll lose in tax off the ICE cars.

Given that around half the fuel cost goes in some sort of tax. 

Is it as low as half?

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37 minutes ago, Stevan said:

Is it as low as half?

NO

 

57.95 pence per litre is duty and then VAT on top of it all.

 

AJG

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14 hours ago, windowwatcher said:

I wonder how much recharging will cost when there are enough BEV's on the road for the government to try and claw back the billions they'll lose in tax off the ICE cars.

Given that around half the fuel cost goes in some sort of tax. 

Engenie allready charge 35p/kWh for fast charge.

It would be difficult for the Government to charge transport tax on home charging, how can they tell which wat goes where?

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They will introduce roadpricing.

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1 hour ago, Artleknock said:

Engenie allready charge 35p/kWh for fast charge.

It would be difficult for the Government to charge transport tax on home charging, how can they tell which wat goes where?

That could equate to, about 17p per mile  - based on previous notes of about 6p per mile at about 11p/kWh so needing about 0.5 kWh per mile. You would have to be desperate to want to pay 3 times the cost at home, even more so when there seem to be places that do not charge.

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4 hours ago, Paul1957 said:

That could equate to, about 17p per mile  - based on previous notes of about 6p per mile at about 11p/kWh so needing about 0.5 kWh per mile. You would have to be desperate to want to pay 3 times the cost at home, even more so when there seem to be places that do not charge.

Depends on the EV. Mine has 13.8kWh battery and has a failsafe to stop more than 70% of that being used so as to protect the battery. That means a charge of about 9.5kWh fills it. I charge mine from a three pin socket ( the Granny cable) from 12 midnight to full and my smart meter shows that being used over about 3 hours.

A full electric EV would take about a day and a half for a full charge at that rate, so they need a fast charge, even then they advise only filling to 80% full because it would take nearly as long again to squees the final 20% in.

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6 minutes ago, Artleknock said:

 

Depends on the EV. Mine has 13.8kWh battery and has a failsafe to stop more than 70% of that being used so as to protect the battery. That means a charge of about 9.5kWh fills it. I charge mine from a three pin socket ( the Granny cable) from 12 midnight to full and my smart meter shows that being used over about 3 hours.

A full electric EV would take about a day and a half for a full charge at that rate, so they need a fast charge, even then they advise only filling to 80% full because it would take nearly as long again to squees the final 20% in.

I assume youve seen the issues with Mitsubishi Software and battery ageing? If not I'll PM you the info.

 

AJG

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On 19/01/2020 at 19:43, windowwatcher said:

I wonder how much recharging will cost when there are enough BEV's on the road for the government to try and claw back the billions they'll lose in tax off the ICE cars.

 

There will be charging by the mile of road use; probably more in cities, taking over from congestion charges. Some tax will remain on petrol and diesel as a pollution tax. While possible, it is not practical to separate the usage of electricity  at home into domestic use and vehicle charging - possible, but too easily circumvented.

 

We are only seeing a honeymoon period of EV usage at present, but that will come to an end as they become more popular.

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1 hour ago, Bolingbroke said:

 

There will be charging by the mile of road use; probably more in cities, taking over from congestion charges. Some tax will remain on petrol and diesel as a pollution tax. While possible, it is not practical to separate the usage of electricity  at home into domestic use and vehicle charging - possible, but too easily circumvented.

 

We are only seeing a honeymoon period of EV usage at present, but that will come to an end as they become more popular.

 

Totally agree, the early adopters of EV's are certainly getting a good deal when it comes to fuel costs but there will come a time in the future when the loss of revenue from petrol & diesel taxes and duties will show a sufficient reduction compared with today that the government (of the day) will have to look at making good the loss of tax/duty revenue on petrol and diesel. 

 

Although not yet implemented in cars no doubt there will be technology available to make road pricing an effective alternative to fuel tax & duty and I'm sure that's where we'll go. Road pricing will allow for targeted charges which could be used to price out (reduce) demand on roads at specific time, that would be a far more effective, and flexible, way of managing traffic volumes, e.g. different times of the day or  weekdays or weekends.    

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17 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

I assume youve seen the issues with Mitsubishi Software and battery ageing? If not I'll PM you the info.

 

AJG

I haven't seen it, or heard of it. Please send it.

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Rather than road pricing which would need some technology installing, it would be simpler to increase the annual car tax. Currently at about £1000 a year spent on fuel, possibly £600 or more is tax. Charging at home pays 5% VAT so possibly £25 on about £500 electric cost, if charging elsewhere maybe it is 20% VAT. So they just need to up the car tax and make it easier to pay by collecting it monthly. 

 

To provide all this electricity by renewable means for transport and home heating which we are told also needs to go to electric, will need a vast investment to increase the number of wind farms, a factor of three would just satisfy current use instead of the gas power stations, but then far far more than this to replace gas heating and transport. Nobody wants to finance nuclear, nobody wants to use coal and the gas still contributes to CO2. Drax burns biomass (possibly from South America brought by diesel ship) and makes up a large part of the renewables but nobody wants power stations that pollute. I do not think the government has mentioned what they plan for the future.

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1 hour ago, Paul1957 said:

Rather than road pricing which would need some technology installing, it would be simpler to increase the annual car tax.

 

Many recent cars have this tech (ie movement tracing) installed already. 

 

The issue is not just about emmissions.  Something needs be done about plain congestion (which is what the London charge was originally about) as it is a waste of time and money, and traffic makes life generally unpleasant, apart from the accident toll. At least the tax on petrol/diesel is a type of tax-per-mile, and a significant one, but if you don't tax EVs by a similar amount per mile it will only encourage even more car usage and traffic. Your suggestion makes the marginal cost of driving trivial (like for EVs today) so does nothing to discourage it.

 

1 hour ago, Paul1957 said:

we .... will need a vast investment to increase the number of wind farms

 

Wind farms are useless when the wind does not blow (like today), and solar panels are useless in the dark, so those conventional power stations* are still needed, even if they stand doing nothing a lot of the time.  The capital cost of this backup needs to be added to any economic valuation of wind power and solar, which its advocates find it convenient to ignore. Wind/solar power is at a similar stage to EVs - in a honeymoon period of being carried along on the coat-tails of the older systems - ie the EVs are subsidised by the taxation on IC vehicles (at the very least they are getting free or very cheap road usage) and wind generation is being propped up by conventional power stations during calm.

 

Nuclear power might not attract investement right now, but is the inescapable solution in the long run, unless we go back to burning fossil fuel.

 

* Or an implausible amount of battery capacity

Edited by Bolingbroke
Clarity

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1 hour ago, Paul1957 said:

Rather than road pricing which would need some technology installing, it would be simpler to increase the annual car tax. Currently at about £1000 a year spent on fuel, possibly £600 or more is tax. Charging at home pays 5% VAT so possibly £25 on about £500 electric cost, if charging elsewhere maybe it is 20% VAT. So they just need to up the car tax and make it easier to pay by collecting it monthly.

 

I'd vote for that - but it favours gas-guzzlers so much it won't happen!

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Food for thought.

A Tesla 85 kilowatt hour battery weighs 1200 lbs

The energy contained is equivalent to 2 gallons of petrol which weighs 14.4 lbs.

You can burn every drop of that petrol-almost😀.

You can only take 50% of the Tesla battery if you want to fast charge it.

Lets assume you could take 70% it’s still illustrates the mountain to be climbed by the BEV in terms of journey range compared to the petrol powered vehicle.

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8 hours ago, Black Grouse said:

 

I'd vote for that - but it favours gas-guzzlers so much it won't happen!

The EU are already trying to sort out the gas guzzlers by fining car manufacturers if their average CO2 is above 95g/km over all the cars they sell. After a while there will not be many new ones to buy.

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9 hours ago, ancell said:

Food for thought.

A Tesla 85 kilowatt hour battery weighs 1200 lbs

The energy contained is equivalent to 2 gallons of petrol which weighs 14.4 lbs.

You can burn every drop of that petrol-almost😀.

You can only take 50% of the Tesla battery if you want to fast charge it.

Lets assume you could take 70% it’s still illustrates the mountain to be climbed by the BEV in terms of journey range compared to the petrol powered vehicle.

Compare the weight of the engine/gearbox/differentials etc to the Tesla offering and the weight imbalance would change significantly. Consider that a Tesla will do 200 miles plus on it's charge are suggesting that a petrol powered car of similar size will do 100 mpg+?

The Tesla supercharger actually take about 20 minutes to charge to 50%, 40 minutes to charge to 80%, and 75 minutes to 100%.

That mountain they have to climb has just be lowered significantly in my opinion, a short stop at the services gives you another 100+ miles.

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I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but don’t these  “super” charging points require a three phase electrical supply,  so are therefore unavailable  to home owners because domestic supply is only two phase.

 

Andy

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10 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but don’t these  “super” charging points require a three phase electrical supply,  so are therefore unavailable  to home owners because domestic supply is only two phase.

 

Andy

Many houses have three phase supplies, mainly for spreading heating load.

Mine supply is for my workshop.

Most houses have a SINGLE phase supply ie. phase + neutral.

Three phase is 3 phases + neutral.

240v between phase and neutral, 415v between phases.

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11 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but don’t these  “super” charging points require a three phase electrical supply,  so are therefore unavailable  to home owners because domestic supply is only two phase.

It's actually called single phase.  But in towns and cities you can get a three-phase supply installed.  The three-phases are shared out between groups of houses.

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