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Fireman Iain

The future of Battery Electric Vehicles?

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37 minutes ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

 

Evidence for that or is it just your opinion?

 

 

Hybrids reduce pollution by recouping energy in braking which can used for moving off. Plug in hybrids are better because you can use them as an electric vehicle for shorter journeys.

 

That's true for stop-start city operations but hybrids become inefficient on longer journeys where little braking is needed and any electric energy long since used up.

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42 minutes ago, JTQ said:

 

But if no appreciable braking is involved, say several hours on a French Autoroute, there will be nothing to recover, but still the battery mass to be transported, by the ICE doing the work.

Hybrids, only win in cases where their attributes outweigh the above  scenario, not a universal solution but horses for courses. Great, but only for the right applications.

Agreed but Paul1957 said "Passat hybrid review I think it quoted 42 mpg on a long run (72 miles) and 29 mpg towing but on top of that would be charging the batteries before setting off. Adding the battery charging the hybrid is going to contribute more to global warming than a diesel or possibly even just a petrol." Its the charging the batteries before setting off followed by the "Battery charging would add more to global warming that I was asking about.

16 minutes ago, Black Grouse said:

 

That's true for stop-start city operations but hybrids become inefficient on longer journeys where little braking is needed and any electric energy long since used up.

What I said was PHEV's were good for shorter journeys where they can be as an EV, our Outlander was quite impressive, 2 litre petrol and 45 mpg on a 250 mile journey which included 2 partial (free) top ups.

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There is many alternatives to the Lithium based batteries under development. How many of these will go into production will depend on the usual criteria: capacity, weight, cost, reliability and recharge speed.

At present we are in the "early adopter" period regarding the acceptance of electric powered vehicles.

Much it the same way steam and lead acid powered cars went by the wayside at the turn of the 20th century. The IC engine development took over a century to produce the product we all drive around in today.

Maybe the most hopeful solutions is the hydrogen fuel cell and also the refillable electrolyte battery.

Fuel cells have problems with cost and refill points. The refillable electrolyte battery is recharged rapidly by removing the depleted fluid and replacing it with recharged fluid in a few minutes much like fill up with diesel.

The slight difficulty is the electrical charge is carried on ions of hydrogen contained within the fluid. This makes the fluid extremely acid!

We are rushing ahead accepting an inferior product to ease our guilt regarding the use of fossil fuels. The current solution suits the majority of day to day driving but commercial vehicles will need a far better solution and it is possible this will be the driver that provides an alternative to Lithium batteries.

Of course the big business will be interested in forcing through their preferred technology which may no be based on the best solution. It maybe the biggest return and the pattern rights that wins..... remember Betamax Phillips and Sony.

 

 

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6 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

Agreed but Paul1957 said "Passat hybrid review I think it quoted 42 mpg on a long run (72 miles) and 29 mpg towing but on top of that would be charging the batteries before setting off. Adding the battery charging the hybrid is going to contribute more to global warming than a diesel or possibly even just a petrol." Its the charging the batteries before setting off followed by the "Battery charging would add more to global warming that I was asking about.

What I said was PHEV's were good for shorter journeys where they can be as an EV, our Outlander was quite impressive, 2 litre petrol and 45 mpg on a 250 mile journey which included 2 partial (free) top ups.

I would expect a larger car with a diesel to give up to 60 mpg, a smaller car like our C4 with a 1.6 diesel gives around 70 mpg on long runs. You only getting 45 mpg plus having to use a power station burning gas to top up your battery to get your 45 mpg is the evidence that for longer runs a hybrid is worse for global warming than a diesel. Ignoring the CO2 when charging the battery when plugging in hides the actual overall effect on the environment. I guess your free tops ups must have been paid for by somebody else.

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5 hours ago, Paul1957 said:

I would expect a larger car with a diesel to give up to 60 mpg, a smaller car like our C4 with a 1.6 diesel gives around 70 mpg on long runs. You only getting 45 mpg plus having to use a power station burning gas to top up your battery to get your 45 mpg is the evidence that for longer runs a hybrid is worse for global warming than a diesel. Ignoring the CO2 when charging the battery when plugging in hides the actual overall effect on the environment. I guess your free tops ups must have been paid for by somebody else.

I agree with you 100% about diesel unfortunately, the government and the world in general dont agree about diesel and pollution so the diesel option is out of the window. 

You dont 'have' to use a power station burning gas, there are renewable energy options such as wind turbines so I'm happy on that fronts. The free top ups were from ECOTRICITY charge points which provide green electricity. 

 

The final part of our jigsaw is my wifes work journey is 3 miles each way with a trip twice per week of about 28 miles. The PHEV is a very good fit and even the long journeys whilst it uses the engine is still IMHO very good for a petrol powered car.

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I've always wondered about the cost of the electricity, when talking about cost of running a hybrid mostly the assumption seems to be that electricity is free. 

 

Personally I feel it's early days, in ten years there will be EVs coming out with the technology which will transform performance,  just my belief.  Meanwhile I am sticking to a euro 6 diesel, which averages 40mpg  (not close to the manufacturers promised 48) and tows 1500kg at 22 mpg.

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4 hours ago, Mandarin said:

I've always wondered about the cost of the electricity, when talking about cost of running a hybrid mostly the assumption seems to be that electricity is free. 

 

A true cost comparison of fuel prices is very difficult. If you compare prices at the pump with those at the electric meter then electric is very cheap.

However, fossil fuels for road use are very heavily taxed. In the long term I cannot imagine any government being willing to give up on this cash cow.

Electricity from fossil fuels is only marginally more efficient than burning the fuel in a vehicle.

Electricity from renewable sources sounds like free electricity but the infrastructure costs, both capital and ongoing, are huge, but often subsidised. I doubt the long term future of the subsidies.

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Charging our Leaf cost us £2-£3 but it was never totally flat-my father in law worked out it was about 180mpg-very reasonable. Even better if like around us you can find a nice supermarket who have installed them as loss leaders and are free -plug in shop and go home with a full battery!  Other charging stations are far more expensive than charging at home and of course depends on tariff-use economy 7 and you are on a winner!

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If you have an EV, EDF energy have a tariff for owners which is the cheapest Ive found - 11.6p KWh.

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Sadly father in law got rid of it; we had unlimited use of it and it was insured for us while he decided whether or not to carry on driving or not-common sense prevailed and he is now limited to an electric buggy on paths!

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Symbio do it for 11.055p/kwh if you are prepared to risk them

2 minutes ago, Jezzerb said:

Sadly father in law got rid of it; we had unlimited use of it and it was insured for us while he decided whether or not to carry on driving or not-common sense prevailed and he is now limited to an electric buggy on paths!

Could you not have taken it over or bought it from him

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Surely there’s another running cost with EV’s, the battery is often leased. 
This cost is based on the annual mileage the car is expected to cover. 
In my investigations a 10,000 miles pa car would cost £70 per month.  This adds about 8p per mile. 
The battery is considered a consumable much the same as fossil fuels. 

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41 minutes ago, Gd485 said:

Surely there’s another running cost with EV’s, the battery is often leased. 
This cost is based on the annual mileage the car is expected to cover. 
In my investigations a 10,000 miles pa car would cost £70 per month.  This adds about 8p per mile. 
The battery is considered a consumable much the same as fossil fuels. 

 

Leased batteries are being phased out - Renault were the main brand to use for the Twizy, Fluence and Zoe but some Nissan Leaf also used them.

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9 hours ago, Gd485 said:

Surely there’s another running cost with EV’s, the battery is often leased. 
This cost is based on the annual mileage the car is expected to cover. 
In my investigations a 10,000 miles pa car would cost £70 per month.  This adds about 8p per mile. 
The battery is considered a consumable much the same as fossil fuels. 

Very few have leased batteries, the manufacturers have more confidence in them, BMW 8 years / 100,000 miles, Mitsubishi 100,000 miles.

 

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3 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

Very few have leased batteries, the manufacturers have more confidence in them, BMW 8 years / 100,000 miles, Mitsubishi 100,000 miles.

 

 

Warranties vary according to country with US warranties being longer than Europe.

 

Numerically most EVs have leased batteries - because Renault Fluence/Zoe and Nissan Leaf have dominated the EV sales charts - but they've ended that for new sales and are talking about some form of reduced price capitalisation on all the existing ones but the batteries are owned/leased by RCI Bank, not Renault/Nissan.

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Nissan Leafs -the new ones DON'T have leased batteries as is stated above.  We did think seriously about buying it off him-at just over a year old he got 18500 cash for it from the dealer he bought it off BUT we just love the cars we currently have-would have been financially VERY sensible but with cars at the mo our hearts rule our heads! We would have had to have got rid of our John Cooper Works Clubman, and we couldn't do it! Plus we're on pcp and it would have been a bit expensive in the short term!

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18 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

If you have an EV, EDF energy have a tariff for owners which is the cheapest Ive found - 11.6p KWh.

 

Toniks night rate is 10.66p/kwh. That works out to about the cost of a litre of petrol to fill the battery, which gives 27 miles on my car or 21 if the heater and air con is on :(.

Not many cars will do better than 90 miles for the cost of a gallon.

 

On 18/01/2020 at 00:32, Paul1957 said:

I would expect a larger car with a diesel to give up to 60 mpg, a smaller car like our C4 with a 1.6 diesel gives around 70 mpg on long runs. You only getting 45 mpg plus having to use a power station burning gas to top up your battery to get your 45 mpg is the evidence that for longer runs a hybrid is worse for global warming than a diesel. Ignoring the CO2 when charging the battery when plugging in hides the actual overall effect on the environment. I guess your free tops ups must have been paid for by somebody else.

 

A diesel might be less poluting on a long run, but for short runs where the diesel is at its dirtiest, the PHEV wins hands down.

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There is still a mountain to climb in the practical realities of finding somewhere to charge an electric vehicle in the UK.

As an example of the mountain to be climbed there are only Ford a founding partner in Ionity-the rapid charging network is opening its first 350kw rapid charge site and there are only three Ionity sites actually built at the moment-so much for the commitment of the car manufacturers.

The UK has 26000 known public chargers-thats laughably small given there were over 38 million vehicles registered last year.

There are only 3000 fast chargers available for public use at present(100kw in 1 hour charge)

Theres a long long way to go-if ever-for the BEV as a practical choice with present battery technology.

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On 18/01/2020 at 00:32, Paul1957 said:

I would expect a larger car with a diesel to give up to 60 mpg, a smaller car like our C4 with a 1.6 diesel gives around 70 mpg on long runs. You only getting 45 mpg plus having to use a power station burning gas to top up your battery to get your 45 mpg is the evidence that for longer runs a hybrid is worse for global warming than a diesel. Ignoring the CO2 when charging the battery when plugging in hides the actual overall effect on the environment. I guess your free tops ups must have been paid for by somebody else.


We had a DS4 with the same 1.6 diesel as your C4 - the only way you’d get 70mpg is cruising at 60mph on a motorway, treating the accelerator like it had a grenade under and turning the engine off when you went downhill!

 

On long runs it would get low to mid 50’s, at best.

 

In my normal use a hybrid like the Passat GTE would give me outstanding economy, when on long runs or towing it wouldn’t but as I do 7500 miles of commuting a year in theory without using a drop of petrol I’d take the poorer economy on runs.

 

15 hours ago, Gd485 said:

Surely there’s another running cost with EV’s, the battery is often leased. 
This cost is based on the annual mileage the car is expected to cover. 
In my investigations a 10,000 miles pa car would cost £70 per month.  This adds about 8p per mile. 
The battery is considered a consumable much the same as fossil fuels. 


Don’t think any manufacturers currently offer the leased option.

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6 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

Very few have leased batteries, the manufacturers have more confidence in them, BMW 8 years / 100,000 miles, Mitsubishi 100,000 miles.

 

 

At 100,000 miles these days, most conventionally powered cars are good for possibly at least another 50 - 100,00 miles and continue on till their demise under new owners, during which times, in most instances, there won't be massive expense needed other than general maintenance, wear and tear items etc.

 

However, take a top of the range electric car, say a BMW at 100,000+ miles ( or the annual equivalent ), would you fancy buying one knowing that a the battery may need replacing in the near future, when at the moment, used batteries for BMS's sell for £4,000 - £5,000  +fitting and programming. 😱

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43 minutes ago, ancell said:

The UK has 26000 known public chargers-thats laughably small given there were over 38 million vehicles registered last year.

There are only 3000 fast chargers available for public use at present(100kw in 1 hour charge)

Theres a long long way to go-if ever-for the BEV as a practical choice with present battery technology.

 

There's more than enough chargers for the minute number of EVs on the road - most chargers spend most of their time unused - whether the rate of increase for chargers keeps up with the rate of increase for EVs is yet to be seen.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Silversurf said:

 

At 100,000 miles these days, most conventionally powered cars are good for possibly at least another 50 - 100,00 miles and continue on till their demise under new owners, during which times, in most instances, there won't be massive expense needed other than general maintenance, wear and tear items etc.

 

However, take a top of the range electric car, say a BMW at 100,000+ miles ( or the annual equivalent ), would you fancy buying one knowing that a the battery may need replacing in the near future, when at the moment, used batteries for BMS's sell for £4,000 - £5,000  +fitting and programming. 😱

 

Battery life is exceeding even the most optimistic estimates - globallyNissan have replaced just 3 batteries under warranty, out of 35,000 - and the gradual capacity reduction is also way less than predicted.

 

The chance of having to replace a battery is statistically very low - but very expensive if you're the unlucky one.

Edited by Black Grouse
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There may be plenty of chargers but the charging systems and especially payment systems are absolutely ludicrous and very impractical-we simply charged at home because we refused to subscribe to a service and pay £7 a month for the pleasure of using one brand to find that you needed an app for a different sort. At least Tesco were free! And then of course you could turn up, and it isn't working or is occupied.  Needs all electric chargers to be the same cable connection and all to simply take contactless imo! At the moment it is a total mess.

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4 minutes ago, Jezzerb said:

There may be plenty of chargers but the charging systems and especially payment systems are absolutely ludicrous and very impractical-we simply charged at home because we refused to subscribe to a service and pay £7 a month for the pleasure of using one brand to find that you needed an app for a different sort. At least Tesco were free! And then of course you could turn up, and it isn't working or is occupied.  Needs all electric chargers to be the same cable connection and all to simply take contactless imo! At the moment it is a total mess.

 

The different power charging rates needs diiferent connections

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I know but it's not helpful to have to cope with that and then work out how to pay too-just far too many variables . 

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2 hours ago, Artleknock said:

 

Toniks night rate is 10.66p/kwh. That works out to about the cost of a litre of petrol to fill the battery, which gives 27 miles on my car or 21 if the heater and air con is on :(.

Not many cars will do better than 90 miles for the cost of a gallon.

 

 

A diesel might be less poluting on a long run, but for short runs where the diesel is at its dirtiest, the PHEV wins hands down.

Totally agree a hybrid is ideal for somebody who does maybe 10 or 20 miles a day which can be done on batteries and can charge up overnight but has the occasional long trip where the petrol takes over. However, for somebody only doing these short trips, say 5000 miles a year, it makes for expensive motoring when the higher cost of the car is taken into account, if about £10k that would pay for up to 100k miles of diesel. It only makes sense if diesels are not allowed to be used and in the next year or so the various town councils will probably have decided on how to reduce pollution and then it will become clearer which cars if any we can use.

Edited by Paul1957

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