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Fireman Iain

The future of Battery Electric Vehicles?

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Until there is a viable electric vehicle which can properly meet my needs as a touring caravan enthusiast, I will continue to use my Euro 6 compliant Diesel tow car.  My car is probably cleaner than many older petrol cars and certainly emits less CO2 the level of which is on the increase as folk make a switch from Diesel to Petrol.  For the time being, electric cars are of no use to me.

 

       John.

Edited by Leedslad
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30 minutes ago, Leedslad said:

Until there is a viable electric vehicle which can properly meet my needs as a touring caravan enthusiast, I will continue to use my Euro 6 compliant Diesel tow car.  My car is probably cleaner than many older petrol cars and certainly emits less CO2 the level of which is on the increase as folk make a switch from Diesel to Petrol.  For the time being, electric cars are of no use to me.

 

       John.

 

I share the same view, and feel unless battery development makes a big change forward in capacity and probably of even greater importance becomes less damaging  to the environment,  100% "battery" EVs have a limited future.

 

IMO, the smarter money would be in hydrogen fuelled, EVs.  The high capacity of energy being stored  within hydrogen rather than a battery. The solution could be lighter,  have range performance like we know today, refuelling as quick as ICEs are today, the infrastructure a shadow of that required for BEVs and the generating capacity would be buffered, not sized for peak BEV recharging; when the sun shines they make hydrogen, possibly in places covered in sand with lots of sunshine.

A battery would be needed to buffer the vehicle's peak accelerating demands, not met by the fuel cell, but a battery a fraction of that seen in BEVs.

 

 

 

Edited by JTQ

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10 minutes ago, Leedslad said:

Until there is a viable electric vehicle which can properly meet my needs as a touring caravan enthusiast, I will continue to use my Euro 6 compliant Diesel tow car.  My car is probably cleaner than many older petrol cars and certainly emits less CO2 the level of which is on the increase as folk make a switch from Diesel to Petrol.  For the time being, electric cars are of no use to me.

 

       John.

 

The switch from diesel to straight petrol is very short term and in reality people have been downsizing from 2.0TDi's to 1.5Turbo Petrol or smaller. Most people don't need a towcar. 

But as legislation starts this year on a graduated scale to impose an average of 95g/km CO2 per vehicle on manufacturers we have already started to see an influx of hybrid and PHEV.

So yes the industry is seeing a massive drop in diesel sales but CO2 is still expected to fall from vehicle emissions year on year from 2020 to 2024 due to the legislation currently in place.

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10 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

The switch from diesel to straight petrol is very short term and in reality people have been downsizing from 2.0TDi's to 1.5Turbo Petrol or smaller. Most people don't need a towcar. 

But as legislation starts this year on a graduated scale to impose an average of 95g/km CO2 per vehicle on manufacturers we have already started to see an influx of hybrid and PHEV.

So yes the industry is seeing a massive drop in diesel sales but CO2 is still expected to fall from vehicle emissions year on year from 2020 to 2024 due to the legislation currently in place.

 

That projection is mixed up with the fact that NEDC/WLTP testing gives wierd results for hybrids - the figures for short trip city traffic and long distance open road cruising vary far more for hybrids than conventional vehicles but both NEDC and WLTP make an arbitrary % split between the two.

 

So cars that have official figures under 95 g/km may still be causing an increase in CO2 if their usage pattern is different.

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5 minutes ago, Black Grouse said:

So cars that have official figures under 95 g/km may still be causing an increase in CO2 if their usage pattern is different.

 

Yep correct.

 

If you have a Phev Range Rover, never charge it and spend all day on the motorway. then don't expect 72mpg, 88g/km

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2 hours ago, Black Grouse said:

 

That projection is mixed up with the fact that NEDC/WLTP testing gives wierd results for hybrids - the figures for short trip city traffic and long distance open road cruising vary far more for hybrids than conventional vehicles but both NEDC and WLTP make an arbitrary % split between the two.

 

So cars that have official figures under 95 g/km may still be causing an increase in CO2 if their usage pattern is different.

Yes, the "official figures" have very little relevance to the real world at all!

 

 

Nobodies "usage pattern" ever actually conforms to the standard test.

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What can you believe?

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8 minutes ago, James Donald said:

What can you believe?

 

American EPA figures! Several of my cars have had an identical model sold in the USA and in all cases the EPA City/Highway figures have been very close to my own experience in the UK - of course the units need conversion from MPG (US) to MPG (UK) or litres/100km for comparison.

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13 minutes ago, James Donald said:

What can you believe?

Certainly not anyone who has a vested interest in selling cars!

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1 hour ago, Stevan said:

Yes, the "official figures" have very little relevance to the real world at all!

 

 

Indeed they do not, and it’s certainly not a perfect system.

 

But what they DO give is a means of comparing  one vehicle against another because they ALL undergo the identical test regime. So, whilst not perfect a prospective purchaser can see (if they wish) the difference in fuel consumption and emissions between vehicle A and vehicle B safe in the knowledge that the test hasnt been “skewed” by a manufacturer 

 

Who said VW? Come on, own up at the back! 

 

Andy

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

Indeed they do not, and it’s certainly not a perfect system.

 

But what they DO give is a means of comparing  one vehicle against another because they ALL undergo the identical test regime. So, whilst not perfect a prospective purchaser can see (if they wish) the difference in fuel consumption and emissions between vehicle A and vehicle B safe in the knowledge that the test hasnt been “skewed” by a manufacturer 

 

Who said VW? Come on, own up at the back! 

 

Andy

 

 

The problem is the test for Hybrids is meaningless. Mitsubishi used to claim 168 mpg for their Outlander PHEV, absolutely pointless figure and one that will never be achieved. With a PHEV they are allowed to quote MPG with full batteries well what's the point in that? What they should do is constant speed MPG on engine only at various speeds plus a mixed one and publish the electric range, then people could make some sense of the figure instead of the outrageous claims we currently have.

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52 minutes ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

The problem is the test for Hybrids is meaningless. Mitsubishi used to claim 168 mpg for their Outlander PHEV, absolutely pointless figure and one that will never be achieved. With a PHEV they are allowed to quote MPG with full batteries well what's the point in that? What they should do is constant speed MPG on engine only at various speeds plus a mixed one and publish the electric range, then people could make some sense of the figure instead of the outrageous claims we currently have.

With PHEV they should quote an electric range and a petrol only mpg. Any attempt to merge the two produces an utterly meaningless figure.

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6 minutes ago, Stevan said:

With PHEV they should quote an electric range and a petrol only mpg. Any attempt to merge the two produces an utterly meaningless figure.

Absolutely, oddly, when running as a hybrid, it's more efficient when the batteries are not full. When they are full theres very little regen braking, it has nowhere to dump the energy.

 

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1 hour ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

Indeed they do not, and it’s certainly not a perfect system.

 

But what they DO give is a means of comparing  one vehicle against another because they ALL undergo the identical test regime. So, whilst not perfect a prospective purchaser can see (if they wish) the difference in fuel consumption and emissions between vehicle A and vehicle B safe in the knowledge that the test hasnt been “skewed” by a manufacturer 

 

Who said VW? Come on, own up at the back! 

 

Andy

 

 

 

They only give a comparison at the NEDC/WLTP usage pattern - any other usage pattern and you can't compare accurately - for instance a PHEV and diesel when hauling a heavy trailer long distance.

 

Carefully count ALL the other manufacturers who have been implicated to a lesser extent - very few were squeaky clean.

Edited by Black Grouse

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You have to forget official figures for PHEV as they are meaningless.

 

Electric range and your daily driving is the thing to look at.

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1 hour ago, logiclee said:

You have to forget official figures for PHEV as they are meaningless.

 

Electric range and your daily driving is the thing to look at.

 

You're not wrong - but there's no figures available to assess the petrol/diesel consumption for any miles once the electric range is exceeded.

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13 minutes ago, Black Grouse said:

 

You're not wrong - but there's no figures available to assess the petrol/diesel consumption for any miles once the electric range is exceeded.

 

There are some figures available for some vehicles but there really needs to be a framework in place.

 

NEDC figures for "Battery Empty" included.

https://ev-database.uk/car/1155/Land-Rover-Range-Rover-P400e-PHEV 

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2 hours ago, logiclee said:

You have to forget official figures for PHEV as they are meaningless.

 

Electric range and your daily driving is the thing to look at.

 

I agree, which surely goes to prove that we are producing cars which are engineered to pass tests that have no realistic value in real life. 

 

Surely the motor industries R&D resources and expenditure should be focused on long term sustainable solution for the future not short term 'sops' to ill conceived short term government targets. The motor industry is only responding to government's legislation, which is sure fundamentally flawed. As with some many other government initiatives it is all short term.  

 

In a decades time when the EV market is a little more mature there will be much more practical pure EV solutions at which point the value of these stop-gap hybrids will plummet because they will not be providing an acceptable environmental benefit, their performance will be very, very poor alongside EV technology and they are quite likely to be expensive to maintain especially when their environmental benefit is likely to be so marginal .

 

I accept there is no way of changing this but we really are being taken for fools be government. 

Edited by jetA1

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3 minutes ago, jetA1 said:

 

The motor industry is only responding to government's legislation, which is sure fundamentally flawed. As with some many other government initiatives it is all short term.  

 

 

Car manufacturers have to comply with the current regulations that are in place. It’s no good producing, or spending huge amounts in R&D on,  something that you cannot sell because it’s non compliant is it??

 

Andy

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11 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

Car manufacturers have to comply with the current regulations that are in place. It’s no good producing, or spending huge amounts in R&D on,  something that you cannot sell because it’s non compliant is it??

 

Andy

 

Which is precisely the point I am making !!

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58 minutes ago, jetA1 said:

 

I agree, which surely goes to prove that we are producing cars which are engineered to pass tests that have no realistic value in real life. 


Agree that cars a being produced to pass the tests but it can depend on your driving how suitable they are for you.
 

My role will change at some point but at the moment I drive 28 miles a day (town at the beginning and end, dual carriageway in the middle) and use my car for business use 1-2 times a week; I am convinced a hybrid such as a Passat GTE would do most of the work I need it to on battery alone - a tank of fuel would last months! Fairly confident I could get close to the claimed position over a 12 month period even using it as a tow car.

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On 14/01/2020 at 08:00, Borussia 1900 said:

Our milkman used to deliver milk in glass recyclable bottles in his electric powered milk float.........

Yes I remember those in the early days, limping back to base at the end of a shift, sometimes on dark winter evenings at walking pace and lights barely visible.

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The below makes rather interesting viewing.

 

A chap takes six BEV’s and a team drives them over the same route basically in convoy to see how the claimed range stands up to the real world.

 

 

Like I said, pretty interesting, and informative, viewing. 

 

Andy

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And This review of the new VW Passat (it’s a hybrid not fully BEV) makes REALLY interesting reading, it would appear  that VW have successfully nailed the task of producing a decent hybrid towcar.

 

Andy

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1 hour ago, Mr Plodd said:

The below makes rather interesting viewing.

 

A chap takes six BEV’s and a team drives them over the same route basically in convoy to see how the claimed range stands up to the real world.

 

 

Like I said, pretty interesting, and informative, viewing. 

 

Andy

Interesting indeed!

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