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logiclee

Large SUV and Diesels future?

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I'm a subscriber to Harry's Garage and in his latest video discusses the CO2 legislation coming into force in the next few years.

 

Really puts into question the continuing production of large SUV's having a V6 diesel. 

 

A 2.0 Petrol Range Rover anyone?

 

 

Edited by logiclee

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I was under the impression that diesels emitted lower CO2 than petrol.  Am I mistaken? 

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2 minutes ago, Squash said:

I was under the impression that diesels emitted lower CO2 than petrol.  Am I mistaken? 

 

 

They do but.

 

To get below 95g/km most manufacturers are going PHEV or EV and most PHEV units use a petrol motor for the internal combustion unit. 

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23 minutes ago, logiclee said:

A 2.0 Petrol Range Rover anyone?


Well, you used to be able to get a 2.0MPi Discovery back in the mid 90’s although that’s not exactly setting the bar high!

 

Lots of cars now have a hybrid 4-pot that a generation ago would have been unthinkable, I suppose there will always be those that hanker after the SVR Range Rover for the noise (although I for one think they sound awful) but in reality a hybrid power plant to ensure smooth and linear acceleration and silent cruising is probably more what a RR is about.

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FWIW .....

The longer term future is clearly now under some Political & lobbyist high moral ground threat.

 

I am at a loss though given the dirty emmissions of some Countries, continuing building of dirty coal power stations and dirty World Industries (Shipping & Livestock etc) as to how me or you going hybrid or EV will start to resolve the greater issues. I realise sadly nobody doing nothing  won't sort things.

 

I run a Euro 6 SUV  (2013 W166 MB ML250 bluetec) with a 2.1D 4 pot on adblue. I run on Shell V Power, keep up to servicing etc and last MOT emmisions were Zero reading. Returns 28 - 30 towing / town & 40 + solo. 8 k per annum. I run a VW Aye Up! around town - 3 cyl petrol - 40 mpg - but mainly for its size for parking etc. I generally keep my cars 5 to 8 years plus.

 

There is some issue to be had with the old technology dirty thirsty diesels smoking around but I think the MOT test (if properly correctly done), higher VED & Fuel Duty costs will slowly sort them out.

 

Steps off soap box ....

 

Await critic ...

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17 minutes ago, montesa said:

 

 

There is some issue to be had with the old technology dirty thirsty diesels smoking around but I think the MOT test (if properly correctly done), higher VED & Fuel Duty costs will slowly sort them out.

 

 

 

Await critic ...

 

 

There are two issues that legislators are looking at going forward.

 

Nox for local air quality which has been an issue for diesel but can be controlled with sufficient controls and CO2 for global warming.

 

As said in the video larger diesels still can't meet 95g/km on WLTP  emissions which is why manufacturers are going PHEV and EV.

 

So why is Petrol being favoured for PHEV?  A number of reasons really. NVH is higher and it's harder to produce a seemless diesel PHEV. The internal combustion engine is often restarted when cold and underload so NOx is harder to control in a PHEV diesel. And finally public opinion and legislation world wide is suppressing investment in diesel PHEV.

 

 

 

 

Edited by logiclee

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The whole aspect of car ownership is going to have to be addressed soon, even as a lifelong user even I am beginning to accept traffic is just reaching ridiculous levels let alone what under the bonnet. The solution is probably a complete change from tax on fuel to road pricing or to put it another way pricing it so high we all think about whether the journey is really worthwhile!

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55 minutes ago, compact said:

The whole aspect of car ownership is going to have to be addressed soon, even as a lifelong user even I am beginning to accept traffic is just reaching ridiculous levels let alone what under the bonnet. The solution is probably a complete change from tax on fuel to road pricing or to put it another way pricing it so high we all think about whether the journey is really worthwhile!

Far too many vehicle movements. Need to de-incentivise unnecessary travel in the most effective way. 

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2 hours ago, ericfield said:

Far too many vehicle movements. Need to de-incentivise unnecessary travel in the most effective way. 

 

Personally I own four vehicles - none of which are diesel powered - but as only I drive them clearly they are only on the road one at a time. The one I use mostly for longer journeys is an LPG powered Volvo although the other vehicles are petrol. Many years ago I briefly owned a diesel powered 4x4 but soon sold it again, vowing that I'd never buy another. For local journeys, I'm more likely to use a pushbike than a car, not out of any concern for the environment but primarily because it is often quicker and there are no concerns over parking charges.

 

Logiclee posted a very interesting video explaining the various plus and minus points of running a PHEV but the £70K+ example reviewed is probably out of the reach for Mr Average. I like the principle of a pure EV for short journeys but unless I could have an alternative vehicle for longer journeys a pure electric only vehicle is not on my shopping list (yet?) and of course you still have to pay for the electricity if charged just at home.

 

Initially a PHEV sounds the best option overall but the one demonstrated is overly complicated, so one that has a "set and forget" mode is probably best suited for most people, and in practice is probably what most will end up doing anyway once the novelty has worn off.

 

As an aside, I noted that the quoted battery range of the Range Rover Sport at 24miles is approximately half the range I have on my electric pushbike - no direct comparison but interesting all the same :rolleyes:

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Personally I blame Amazon Prime. All those £2.99 purchases turning up one at a time in battered old vans.

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4 hours ago, Gordon said:

 .... Initially a PHEV sounds the best option overall but the one demonstrated is overly complicated, so one that has a "set and forget" mode is probably best suited for most people, and in practice is probably what most will end up doing anyway once the novelty has worn off.....

 

I think there is a lot of 'kidology' around the fuel consumption figures quoted for PHEV's . The guy in the video did eventually (after much rambling) home in on the point that to make the most of a PHEV there needs to be a mindset to plug it in as frequently as possible to maximize the EV benefit. 

 

Now I may be wrong but in the example given (£70k+ Range Rover) I find it difficult to believe that a typical owner is going to adopt that mindset.  The reduction in running costs is unlikely to be sufficiently attractive to engage the owner with the 'faff' of finding a charging point, getting the cables out an plugging it in.

 

Maybe I'm too cynical for my own good, but to me the PHEV Range Rover is a token gesture towards reducing the fleet emissions score. It's not on its own, I'm sure there will be plenty more examples as manufacturers struggle to meet fleet emissions targets. 

 

I'd rather see the money and effort going into pure EV's and the necessary infrastructure so as to make them more acceptable (range wise - we're getting there but only on the very latest cars) and affordable. At 63 I doubt there will be an affordable pure EV option on my lifetime. I'm not in the market for buying new, the most I've ever paid for a car is £6k, I'm sure I'm not alone. 

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2 hours ago, jetA1 said:

 

I think there is a lot of 'kidology' around the fuel consumption figures quoted for PHEV's . The guy in the video did eventually (after much rambling) home in on the point that to make the most of a PHEV there needs to be a mindset to plug it in as frequently as possible to maximize the EV benefit. 

 

Now I may be wrong but in the example given (£70k+ Range Rover) I find it difficult to believe that a typical owner is going to adopt that mindset.  The reduction in running costs is unlikely to be sufficiently attractive to engage the owner with the 'faff' of finding a charging point, getting the cables out an plugging it in.

 

Maybe I'm too cynical for my own good, but to me the PHEV Range Rover is a token gesture towards reducing the fleet emissions score. It's not on its own, I'm sure there will be plenty more examples as manufacturers struggle to meet fleet emissions targets. 

 

I'd rather see the money and effort going into pure EV's and the necessary infrastructure so as to make them more acceptable (range wise - we're getting there but only on the very latest cars) and affordable. At 63 I doubt there will be an affordable pure EV option on my lifetime. I'm not in the market for buying new, the most I've ever paid for a car is £6k, I'm sure I'm not alone. 

You make some very valid points and I've always argued that PHEV's, all of them are at a disadvantage when theyre on a longer journey, once the batteries are discharged then youre carrying a lot of dead weight that serves no extra purpose. You can recoup some energy when slowing down / stopping but that advantage is lost by carrying the weight around. That said, we have just bought a 2015 Outlander PHEV to replace our Galaxy, mainly because wifeys usage fitted perfectly for PHEV benefits. Her journey to/from work is 3 miles each way, one night per week she goes dancing a 14 mile round trip and occasionally much further. With the Galaxy she was using about £35 of fuel per week, with the PHEV it's around £20 per month. 

You mentioned the faff of plugging it in, there is an element of that, the flip side is that parking spaces are usually available and they're near the door!

We did a trip of 235 miles each way, on the outward journey we started with full batteries and didnt charghe on the way, it managed an impressive  42 mpg (tank top to top), on the return journey we stopped twice for a coffee / bite to eat and plugged in each time to a free, high current charger. During the coffee break we gout about 75% charge and during the bite to eat over 90%. The return journey with the inconvenience? of charging returned over 50mpg.  From a 2 litre N/A petrol I find it really good. Unlike the Range Rover in the video, the Mitsubishi engine cannot be heard at all in the cabin, you don't know when it's started other than by the dashboard indication.

I'm seriously considering selling my caravan and my Rangie and going for an EV of some description.

 

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13 hours ago, logiclee said:

 

 

They do but.

 

To get below 95g/km most manufacturers are going PHEV or EV and most PHEV units use a petrol motor for the internal combustion unit. 

Will that target apply in the UK  after brexit?

 

We only need one car but go on long drives in the UK and in Europe with and without the van and an electric car would not work. A plug in hybrid would work but would spend most of its time on petrol. We don't have a big suv but a yeti and I will continue buying diesels.

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7 hours ago, AndersG said:

Will that target apply in the UK  after brexit?

 

We only need one car but go on long drives in the UK and in Europe with and without the van and an electric car would not work. A plug in hybrid would work but would spend most of its time on petrol. We don't have a big suv but a yeti and I will continue buying diesels.

 

Yes from what I've read the UK will continue to align with EU vehicle legislation.

 

And will continue with our own version of EUETS carbon trading which may even be more strict than the EU's so the UK can achieve NetZero by 2050.

 

You say you will continue too buy diesel but the real discussion point from the video is will Diesel even be an option in a few years time?

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What is making the whole Diesel question foremost in people's mind, is the underhand disgusting addition of emission test cheat software to beat the true emission reading.  No wonder the country concerned is having huge problems with their economy.  Nobody trusts that country or it's products any more.

 

Thee is a simple solution to UK's perceived pollution problem and that is to ban all fossil fueled vehicles from large cities and large towns where the pollution is above a certain level..  Do we need to ban Fossil fueled vehicles from rural areas ... Definitely Not.  It just needs a bit of joined up thinking and the application of some intellectual decisions.

Edited by bessacarr425
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54 minutes ago, bessacarr425 said:

What is making the whole Diesel question foremost in people's mind, is the underhand disgusting addition of emission test cheat software to beat the true emission reading.  No wonder the country concerned is having huge problems with their economy.  Nobody trusts that country or it's products any more.

 

Thee is a simple solution to UK's perceived pollution problem and that is to ban all fossil fueled vehicles from large cities and large towns where the pollution is above a certain level..  Do we need to ban Fossil fueled vehicles from rural areas ... Definitely Not.  It just needs a bit of joined up thinking and the application of some intellectual decisions.

 

Your thoughts are true for NOx.

 

But the legislation being talked about in the Video is for CO2 which is not a localised issue.

 

The only way manufacturers can get under 95g/km on medium to large vehicles is to go PHEV and EV.

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2 hours ago, bessacarr425 said:

What is making the whole Diesel question foremost in people's mind, is the underhand disgusting addition of emission test cheat software to beat the true emission reading.  No wonder the country concerned is having huge problems with their economy.  Nobody trusts that country or it's products any more.


Nobody? I think the sales figures suggest that might be a little bit of a generalisation

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3 hours ago, bessacarr425 said:

Thee is a simple solution to UK's perceived pollution problem and that is to ban all fossil fueled vehicles from large cities and large towns where the pollution is above a certain level..  Do we need to ban Fossil fueled vehicles from rural areas ... Definitely Not.  It just needs a bit of joined up thinking and the application of some intellectual decisions.

Simple is it? So lets have a look at your solution, pollution level is above the limit vehicles are now banned. What about:-

 

1) Businesses have deliveries?
2) What about Emergency vehicles
3) What about refuse collection
4) What about heavy goods vehicles collecting finished items from manufacturing
5) What about diesel electric trains passing through

How are you going to address this with your blanket ban? How are the businesses going to survive?

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21 hours ago, onewheelonmywagon said:

Personally I blame Amazon Prime. All those £2.99 purchases turning up one at a time in battered old vans.

Someone knocked on our door at 21:55 this evening....amazon prime delivery for the wife left on the doorstep.  They already brought one parcel at 11am. 
 

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On 19/12/2019 at 21:58, Gordon said:

 

Personally I own four vehicles - none of which are diesel powered - but as only I drive them clearly they are only on the road one at a time. The one I use mostly for longer journeys is an LPG powered Volvo although the other vehicles are petrol. Many years ago I briefly owned a diesel powered 4x4 but soon sold it again, vowing that I'd never buy another. For local journeys, I'm more likely to use a pushbike than a car, not out of any concern for the environment but primarily because it is often quicker and there are no concerns over parking charges.

 

Logiclee posted a very interesting video explaining the various plus and minus points of running a PHEV but the £70K+ example reviewed is probably out of the reach for Mr Average. I like the principle of a pure EV for short journeys but unless I could have an alternative vehicle for longer journeys a pure electric only vehicle is not on my shopping list (yet?) and of course you still have to pay for the electricity if charged just at home.

 

Initially a PHEV sounds the best option overall but the one demonstrated is overly complicated, so one that has a "set and forget" mode is probably best suited for most people, and in practice is probably what most will end up doing anyway once the novelty has worn off.

 

As an aside, I noted that the quoted battery range of the Range Rover Sport at 24miles is approximately half the range I have on my electric pushbike - no direct comparison but interesting all the same :rolleyes:

Maybe an aside, but very relevant. Until hybrids can raise the battery range significantly (without detrimental weight increase ) they are not going to excite the majority of diesel drivers.  I wouldn’t consider one while it’s range is below at least 50miles....preferably 100miles.  I have in the past dismissed hybrids as a mere stop gap till EV come fully of age, but the video makes an interesting point in how to use hybrids to best advantage.  I just need a few more battery miles to make them work for my motoring.

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18 hours ago, ericfield said:

Maybe an aside, but very relevant. Until hybrids can raise the battery range significantly (without detrimental weight increase ) they are not going to excite the majority of diesel drivers.  I wouldn’t consider one while it’s range is below at least 50miles....preferably 100miles.  I have in the past dismissed hybrids as a mere stop gap till EV come fully of age, but the video makes an interesting point in how to use hybrids to best advantage.  I just need a few more battery miles to make them work for my motoring.

 

We'll have to see how the taxation goes and what is passed onto the consumer.

 

Potentially something like a 3.0V6 Tdi with 158g/km CO2  like the new Touareg could cost the manufacturer £6k in tax.

 

If that is passed onto the consumer then the average diesel driver may be considering hybrid much sooner.

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28 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

We'll have to see how the taxation goes and what is passed onto the consumer.

 

Potentially something like a 3.0V6 Tdi with 158g/km CO2  like the new Touareg could cost the manufacturer £6k in tax.

 

If that is passed onto the consumer then the average diesel driver may be considering hybrid much sooner.


Only if they are buying new cars.

 

Contrary to the current depressing depreciation projection for my 3L V6 ...it may just hold some value if tuggers want a used model. 👍 

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39 minutes ago, ericfield said:


Only if they are buying new cars.

 

Contrary to the current depressing depreciation projection for my 3L V6 ...it may just hold some value if tuggers want a used model. 👍 

 

For cars to be available used first they have to be manufactured and sold new. Will be interesting to see where we are in 3 to 5 years.

 

Unfortunately for used values there's not enough of a towcar market to prop up used diesel values.  Buyers market for used diesel at the moment.  New diesel sales are expected to dip below 20% next year without any increase in tax. Used demand isn't much higher but nearly 40% of cars on the used market are diesel.

Some bargains out there at the moment. Don't pay anywhere near the sticker price.

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I'm confident that my diesel Tiguan will sell well, and at the same time I'm confident my next car will be diesel, only diesel engines suit SUV cars of my size.

 

The  claims of doom for diesel  does not hold up when you look at the petrol driven SUV which return about 10mpg less than a equivalent  diesel .

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