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Percyprod01

Additional wiring in caravan

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It's quite common to see people writing to forums telling what additional wiring they've added to their caravan, sockets etc. I was wondering, as few people seem to get a wiring inspection certificate, what the position would be if they needed to make an insurance claim, especially an electrical fire. As with a house, they would want to see the necessary certificate to say the wiring complied with the necessary regulations. I know this probably wouldn't apply to older vans, but  I was just interested.

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would an insurance company ask for such a certificate if they had not been advised the house/caravan had been rewired?

 

macafee2

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36 minutes ago, Percyprod01 said:

It's quite common to see people writing to forums telling what additional wiring they've added to their caravan, sockets etc. I was wondering, as few people seem to get a wiring inspection certificate, what the position would be if they needed to make an insurance claim, especially an electrical fire. As with a house, they would want to see the necessary certificate to say the wiring complied with the necessary regulations. I know this probably wouldn't apply to older vans, but  I was just interested.

 

How many people who own their own homes get their domestic wiring tested every year? Any certificate would be out of date the day after it was tested. I have a gas safety certificate from when we moved house a couple of months ago. However, the gas pipe coming from the meter had a disconnected earth, a certain safety fail, notwithstanding a big question mark against the competency of the engineer. So one could ask just how good are these certificates anyway. No engineer could possibly check every connection and every metre of cable in a house.

Edited by thebriars

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Someone posted about a fire the other day, can’t imagine them bothering to look through this mess, won’t the copper have disappeared anyway so wouldn’t be able to tell what wiring was where would you?

C2389FA8-3C5A-4580-A387-20915C043403.jpeg

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They don't need to get their houses tested every year. I worked for a DON before I retired, and I was often called to house fires to check the electricity supply was safe. One of the last ones I attended was to a house which had had an extension built on. The owner had done the wiring and plumbing himself. There was a fire in the kitchen which was attributed to a faulty socket. The insurance company asked for the wiring completion certificate, which of course he didn't have. The insurance company refused to pay the claim. The fact the wiring insulation was brown and blue meant it was wired after part p of the building regulations came into force. Off topic I know, but it is possible that in the event of a caravan having a fire which didn't totally destroy it additional wiring could be seen to have been carried out, and insurance companies being what they are they would ve awkward.

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On 28/10/2019 at 21:00, thebriars said:

 

How many people who own their own homes get their domestic wiring tested every year? Any certificate would be out of date the day after it was tested. I have a gas safety certificate from when we moved house a couple of months ago. However, the gas pipe coming from the meter had a disconnected earth, a certain safety fail, notwithstanding a big question mark against the competency of the engineer. So one could ask just how good are these certificates anyway. No engineer could possibly check every connection and every metre of cable in a house.

 

As far as I know GAS engineers do not have a mandate or the necessary competency to make judgements on ELECTRICAL matters.

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31 minutes ago, Woodentop said:

 

As far as I know GAS engineers do not have a mandate or the necessary competency to make judgements on ELECTRICAL matters.

True but they do know that gas pipe should be cross bonded with earthing cables. It was omitted from my house and picked up during a gas boiler maintenance visit. Easily corrected by running the appropriate earth cable.

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In the case of static caravans, including park homes, it is normally in your agreement with your park that any electric work must be carried out by a competent person and that the electrics must be inspected every three years.

Often nobody  monitors that this is being done - but every insurance company knows that this is a standard requirement, so in the case of an electrical fire will simply ask you when the wiring was last checked and who by. Whoever checked the wiring should be accredited by NICEIC and will have records.

It does not usually cost as much as you think to have an accredited company carry out any rewiring, and then you get an inspection and certificate included in the cost.

 

 

Edited by 2seaside
missed a bit

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On 28/10/2019 at 20:39, macafee2 said:

would an insurance company ask for such a certificate if they had not been advised the house/caravan had been rewired?

 

macafee2

 

Yes a caravan insurance company require a certificate to cover the added wiring circuits the original wiring is certified when you buy the caravan under the EU wiring installation regulations . If they are diy then any damage like a fire will not be covered by the added wiring . Caravans have wiring diagrams showing the original circuits .

 

I have checked with insurance companies myself before about adding sockets and implications .

 

 

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave

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11 minutes ago, CommanderDave said:

 

Yes a caravan insurance company require a certificate to cover the added wiring circuits the original wiring is certified when you buy the caravan under the EU wiring installation regulations . If they are diy then any damage like a fire will not be covered by the added wiring . Caravans have wiring diagrams showing the original circuits .

 

 

In theory yes, but in the event of a fire the chances of anyone doing a detailed examination of the remains of the wiring before they are ceremonially swept into a heap  are pretty remote.

And, of course, the none-existent certificate will have been destroyed in the fire. 

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If you are simply adding an extra socket and have the tiniest bit of common sense there's not a lot that could be dangerous.  I've never worried about such additions (where needed in previous vans) nor will I in the future.

 

It amuses me how people trawl through Google looking for snippets of information, the odd quote from a report, the anecdotal evidence from something a friend once told them and so on.

 

If you really consider making any electrical addition to your van might be an issue, or be an insurance concern,  then simply don't do it! 

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I would imaging that most people won't be actually adding a new circuit, that is, taking the cabling back to the distribution board, but adding to an existing circuit by adding a spur. Providing the correct size / type of cable is used I can't see much of a problem. In a domestic environment I believe that this is allowed and does not require any additional inspection and testing. I have to be honest and say I am not certain the same rules apply in a caravan but assume that to be the case.

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On 31/10/2019 at 07:59, Woodentop said:

 

As far as I know GAS engineers do not have a mandate or the necessary competency to make judgements on ELECTRICAL matters.

 

True, but he should have put an advisory note on the certificate.

21 hours ago, SuperRed said:

I would imaging that most people won't be actually adding a new circuit, that is, taking the cabling back to the distribution board, but adding to an existing circuit by adding a spur. Providing the correct size / type of cable is used I can't see much of a problem. In a domestic environment I believe that this is allowed and does not require any additional inspection and testing. I have to be honest and say I am not certain the same rules apply in a caravan but assume that to be the case.

 

There are conditions as to when and where you can add a spur. Not that simple!

 

However, caravans are wired differently to domestic house wiring for the sockets.

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On 31/10/2019 at 07:59, Woodentop said:

As far as I know GAS engineers do not have a mandate or the necessary competency to make judgements on ELECTRICAL matters.

Mine does, also oil, domestic gas and caravans. 

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On 31/10/2019 at 08:32, AJGalaxy2012 said:

True but they do know that gas pipe should be cross bonded with earthing cables. It was omitted from my house and picked up during a gas boiler maintenance visit. Easily corrected by running the appropriate earth cable.

 

Ah, but what size of cable? Do you use the size applicable when the meter (or whatever) was installed, or do you use the present size (note I didn't put current size!) There is no requirement to increase the size of earth bonding cables retrospectively so which is it?

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1 hour ago, Woodentop said:

 

Ah, but what size of cable? Do you use the size applicable when the meter (or whatever) was installed, or do you use the present size (note I didn't put current size!) There is no requirement to increase the size of earth bonding cables retrospectively so which is it?

I just used some 10mm2 Green / Yellow I had left over from a job, linked water pipes, gas pipes to the earth point in the meter cabinet.

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20 minutes ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

I just used some 10mm2 Green / Yellow I had left over from a job, linked water pipes, gas pipes to the earth point in the meter cabinet.

 

But I think the present bonding size is 16mm?

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4 hours ago, Woodentop said:

 

But I think the present bonding size is 16mm?

 

That's the thickness of meter tails, not earth bonding.  10mm2 is the normal size I believe.

4 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

I just used some 10mm2 Green / Yellow I had left over from a job, linked water pipes, gas pipes to the earth point in the meter cabinet.

 

Interesting, had a new boiler fitted today and specifically asked if water/gas pipes needed bonding, and the answer was no, because they are all bonded to the boiler frame already.

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7 hours ago, thebriars said:

Interesting, had a new boiler fitted today and specifically asked if water/gas pipes needed bonding, and the answer was no, because they are all bonded to the boiler frame already.

I suppose rules and regs change over time, no problem in having an extra earth.

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9 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

I suppose rules and regs change over time, no problem in having an extra earth.

 

Not always as it depends if plastic piping has been used in the system which would insulate some of the pipes and appliances and not be bonded .

 

On 04/11/2019 at 10:57, thebriars said:

 

True, but he should have put an advisory note on the certificate.

 

There are conditions as to when and where you can add a spur. Not that simple!

 

However, caravans are wired differently to domestic house wiring for the sockets.

 

Caravans come under EU wiring installation regulations section 721 for tourer caravans and motorhomes .

 

Dave

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59 minutes ago, CommanderDave said:

Caravans come under EU wiring installation regulations section 721 for tourer caravans and motorhomes .

 

Dave

To be accurate, it is actually the International Electrotechnical Commission's (IEC) Standard 60364, Part 7, Section 721. It is not an EU regulation but comparable to an ISO standard. It is a worldwide standard and is not enforceable as legislation. It also acknowledges local and regional variations.

 

The IEC clearly state on their documentation that the IEC itself does not provide any attestation of conformity. Independent certification bodies provide conformity assessment services and, in some areas, access to IEC marks of conformity. IEC is not responsible for any services carried out by independent certification bodies.

 

I believe the standard only applies to the initial installation, i.e. by the manufacturer.

Edited by Legal Eagle

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On 03/11/2019 at 11:46, Stevan said:

In theory yes, but in the event of a fire the chances of anyone doing a detailed examination of the remains of the wiring before they are ceremonially swept into a heap  are pretty remote.

And, of course, the none-existent certificate will have been destroyed in the fire. 

 

(a) it would be immaterial whether or not your certificate had vanished in the fire, as the inspecting/updating/repairing electrician will have kept records.

(b) I understand that it is normally possible for the fire brigade to at least suggest the probable cause of the fire.

(c) If they suggest that it was started by an electrical fault, then the insurance company will probably ask when the last inspection was carried out, even if no rewiring/extra sockets had been done.

(d) bearing in mind that we are talking about caravans, the Park owner will also be asking the same question....

++

Incidentally, modern park homes (which are also caravans) the wiring for the sockets and lights is exactly the same as bricks and mortar houses.

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On 28/10/2019 at 20:39, macafee2 said:

would an insurance company ask for such a certificate if they had not been advised the house/caravan had been rewired?

 

macafee2

Are they supplied with every new caravan?

Alan

On 28/10/2019 at 21:00, thebriars said:

 

How many people who own their own homes get their domestic wiring tested every year? Any certificate would be out of date the day after it was tested. I have a gas safety certificate from when we moved house a couple of months ago. However, the gas pipe coming from the meter had a disconnected earth, a certain safety fail, notwithstanding a big question mark against the competency of the engineer. So one could ask just how good are these certificates anyway. No engineer could possibly check every connection and every metre of cable in a house.

Electrical certificates for rental houses had to be renewed every ten years, but the recommendation is now every five years. Why would a certificate be out of date the day after it was tested? From the electrical test that I have had done the electrician checks every electrical fitting in the house. The meters used are super accurate and as I understand it would show up a faulty cable.

Alan 

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30 minutes ago, 2seaside said:

 

(a) it would be immaterial whether or not your certificate had vanished in the fire, as the inspecting/updating/repairing electrician will have kept records.

(b) I understand that it is normally possible for the fire brigade to at least suggest the probable cause of the fire.

(c) If they suggest that it was started by an electrical fault, then the insurance company will probably ask when the last inspection was carried out, even if no rewiring/extra sockets had been done.

(d) bearing in mind that we are talking about caravans, the Park owner will also be asking the same question....

++

Incidentally, modern park homes (which are also caravans) the wiring for the sockets and lights is exactly the same as bricks and mortar houses.

(b) Yes, they may well suggest "an electrical fault", but unless there was death or serious injury it will be a fairly brief investigation, certainly not a fingertip search through the embers comparing every wire with the original specification!

(c) For owner occupied touring caravans there is no requirement for there to be regular inspections.

(d) Most park owners will be mainly concerned with getting the report(however brief) so that they can get their insurance claim in.

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