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stephendutton63

Payload

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Any plated weight should not be exceeded . The caravan maximum nose weight is plated on the Vin caravan plate and the towbar carries a down force plated weight .

 

 

Dave

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8 minutes ago, CommanderDave said:

Any plated weight should not be exceeded . The caravan maximum nose weight is plated on the Vin caravan plate and the towbar carries a down force plated weight .

 

 

Dave

 

Specifically, are you referring to Provision 41 of The Road Traffic Act 1988?

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58 minutes ago, Lutz said:

 

Specifically, are you referring to Provision 41 of The Road Traffic Act 1988?

Section 41 of the RTA 1988 is simply the section of the primary legislation that creates an ability for the Secretary of State for Transport to create secondary legislation. Specifically, the Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations.

4 hours ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

Surely isn't the noseweight limit another advisory one, like the car's towing limit and the 85%/100% towing ratio recommendation? There is no law that you break by exceeding them. The legal limits are the van's MTPLM, the cars Gross Vehicle Weight and Gross Train Weight. 

Section 40a Road Traffic Act 1988, use a vehicle in a dangerous condition etc.

 

The noseweight is not a recommendation, it is the maximum design static load and is part of the type approval, that's why it appears on the type approval plates of towing vehicle tow bar and caravan.

Edited by Legal Eagle

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But without the Road Traffic Act 1988, failure to comply with the Construction and Use Regulations would not be an offence. The regulations themselves only describe what must be fulfilled, but make no mention of the consequences of not doing so.

Edited by Lutz

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I'm just thinking about the days, over 30 years ago, when if we wanted something we just threw it in.

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I'm thinking of the days when you had a proper chassis

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1 hour ago, Easy T said:
9 hours ago, colonel said:

I'm just thinking about the days, over 30 years ago, when if we wanted something we just threw it in.

I'm thinking of the days when you had a proper chassis

You're in danger of opening a whole new can of worms there Colonel / Alan ;)

 

Many towing vehicles today have a monocoque structure and most caravans have a light weight chassis that rely upon the bodywork to provide rigidity. Components in many walks of life are being manufactured for minimal strength to achieve a function, so we do have to pay much more attention to not over stressing them.

 

There was a time when a towball could be fitted directly to a strong spring steel bumper or chassis member, or use an over-engineered towbar but times change and the mounting points on a monocoque are specifically placed to both spread the load, while allowing the structure to still collapse in a controlled manner (the crumple zone) in the event of a rear impact. Similarly towing hitches on trailers were once strong enough to take a significant static noseweight but now they are designed for a much lower static load, sometimes more but often 100kgs. 

 

Back in the day, I can recall towing a small caravan with a significantly higher noseweight than most UK outfits today, and it towed like a dream but later outfits have had a lower limit imposed because of the hitch, towbar and towcar restrictions, consequently payload placement has become more critical.

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On 22/10/2019 at 12:18, stephendutton63 said:

The payload thing is confusing me a little.  .............................................

 

 

:goodpost:

 

Now added to Quick find index

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When it comes to loading, my mantra is heavy car light van.

 

I replaced my car in june, its 100kg lighter than its predecessor, and on the first tow it really showed, very twitchy.

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3 minutes ago, Wellys and Mac said:

When it comes to loading, my mantra is heavy car light van.

 

I replaced my car in june, its 100kg lighter than its predecessor, and on the first tow it really showed, very twitchy.

 

100kg shouldn’t make such a big difference. I strongly suspect that there are further factors which also contribute towards the change.

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1 hour ago, Lutz said:

 

100kg shouldn’t make such a big difference. I strongly suspect that there are further factors which also contribute towards the change.

You mean like a different weight ratio lol...apologises couldnt help it ;-)

 

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17 hours ago, Lutz said:

 

100kg shouldn’t make such a big difference. I strongly suspect that there are further factors which also contribute towards the change.

There appeared not to be, the caravan is loaded correctly all weights observed, 85kg nose, van weighs 1520kg @ 1550kg mtplm, in turn 1520-85= 1435kg axle load. Car has 1500kg towable mass 

I added weight to the car and that solved it.

The car/caravan weight ratio must have been just below the tipping point before, maybe its just the length of my single axle van, always thought it a bit too long for just one pair of wheels, which combined with above could have been enough to influence the lighter new car.

 

Sorted now.

Edited by Wellys and Mac

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2 hours ago, Wellys and Mac said:

There appeared not to be, the caravan is loaded correctly all weights observed, 85kg nose, van weighs 1520kg @ 1550kg mtplm, in turn 1520-85= 1435kg axle load. Car has 1500kg towable mass 

I added weight to the car and that solved it.

The car/caravan weight ratio must have been just below the tipping point before, maybe its just the length of my single axle van, always thought it a bit too long for just one pair of wheels, which combined with above could have been enough to influence the lighter new car.

 

Sorted now.

 

You don't say whether it was just the 100kgs vehicle weight difference you added to the new towcar to regain stability?

 

If that, which is just a sub 16 stone bloke sat in the car, then what you state is IMO decidedly worrying that you must therefore be towing so close to instability.

 

What were the old and new tow vehicles involved?

I ask, as there are several features about tow vehicles that have big influences on stability, some far more than mass ratios.

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JTQ is absolutely right. Quite apart from weight considerations, a change of towing vehicle can have a very big influence, both positive or negative. The length of the caravan is actually more likely to have a steadying influence.

Edited by Lutz

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8 hours ago, Lutz said:

The length of the caravan is actually more likely to have a steadying influence.

BUT only if loaded properly of course!!...otherwise you have introduced a great big play ground seesaw......

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17 minutes ago, charlieboy2608 said:

BUT only if loaded properly of course!!...otherwise you have introduced a great big play ground seesaw......

 

Even if the load distribution is unfavourable, a longer caravan will have a lower frequency of oscillation. It will therefore be easier to regain control should instability occur than a short caravan which will swing quicker.

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Our  caravan is only 5m from hitch to back plate, and has a fairly low payload but I'm aware it's more skittish when collecting from storage, so not laden with stuff we add at home, and settles down better when nearer its official limit.  In contrast to Commander Dave's comment about putting gas bottles at the back, I have to work to keep the nose heavy enough.

 

But I did wonder about the guy we saw in Scotland earlier this year loading his medium sized 'van with not just awning & poles but the chairs, table, solid looking barbecue, 3 bikes and a whole stack of crates of stuff, piled high inside. He had a whacking great pick-up truck, seemingly fairly empty, but I'd hazard a guess the van wouldn't have passed any weighbridge checks.

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1 hour ago, Richard_Y said:

Our  caravan is only 5m from hitch to back plate, and has a fairly low payload but I'm aware it's more skittish when collecting from storage, so not laden with stuff we add at home, and settles down better when nearer its official limit.  In contrast to Commander Dave's comment about putting gas bottles at the back, I have to work to keep the nose heavy enough.

 

But I did wonder about the guy we saw in Scotland earlier this year loading his medium sized 'van with not just awning & poles but the chairs, table, solid looking barbecue, 3 bikes and a whole stack of crates of stuff, piled high inside. He had a whacking great pick-up truck, seemingly fairly empty, but I'd hazard a guess the van wouldn't have passed any weighbridge checks.

 

I have seen a medium SA caravan loaded up to 4 ft deep with a families items and they even had to open the stable door to put the stuff in without it falling out the door which included swings and slide and a number of ride on toys and bikes the load on the  noseweight was so great the hockey wheel broke and it took four men to lift the front A frame to hitch the caravan to the car then husband and wife got in the front of this car and six kids jumped in the three seats at the back and earlier the owner of the caravan said he had paid 250 for the caravan and it still had its 30 year old tyres .

 

Not a clue how much risk is was placing on his family .

 

 

Dave

 

 

Edited by CommanderDave
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I put heavy items in the car, including the wife.

Edited by LeadFarmer
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10 hours ago, CommanderDave said:

Not a clue how much risk is was placing on his family .

Or indeed the rest of us if (when?) something goes wrong :angry:

Gordon.

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On 23/10/2019 at 09:12, CommanderDave said:

The trouble now with these low payloads is you can't leave items where they should be because you have so little weight to balance out the caravan ? We often get members on here that have to move their gas bottles from the front gas locker to the rear bathroom to obtain a legal nose weight.

 

 

 

Dave

Dont fancy that -- could cause " tailwagging" -- have experienced it with a Avondale.....

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On 22/10/2019 at 12:21, Fenester said:

Caravan are more stable with a decent nose weight as long as the weight doesn't exceed the nose weight limit the lowest of: Car, Van or Aftermarket Bar Limit. A light front ended van is awful.

 

Someone should have told Baileys about that before they designed the Unicorn Seville S4. Noseweight with just the van + mover + battery - 34Kg!!  Most we have ever managed is 53Kg - but with the cooker and gas box at the back and the toilet not much forward what do you expect?

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3 minutes ago, Woodentop said:

 

Someone should have told Baileys about that before they designed the Unicorn Seville S4. with just the van + mover + battery - 34Kg!!  we have ever managed is 53Kg - but with the cooker and gas box at the back and the toilet not much forward what do you expect?

 

Not convinced "designers" are involved, I suspect it is wholly the work of "stylists".

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10 minutes ago, Woodentop said:

 

Someone should have told Baileys about that before they designed the Unicorn Seville S4. Noseweight with just the van + mover + battery - 34Kg!!  Most we have ever managed is 53Kg - but with the cooker and gas box at the back and the toilet not much forward what do you expect?


I can’t quite see the problem. When I picked up my new caravan from the dealer it had a noseweight of around 25kg, but I have absolutely no difficulty in achieving the towcar‘s limit of 80kg when it’s fully loaded.

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16 minutes ago, Woodentop said:

Most we have ever managed is 53Kg - but with the cooker and gas box at the back and the toilet not much forward what do you expect?

I would have expected the axle to be a tad further back.

 

1 minute ago, Lutz said:


I can’t quite see the problem. When I picked up my new caravan from the dealer it had a noseweight of around 25kg, but I have absolutely no difficulty in achieving the towcar‘s limit of 80kg when it’s fully loaded.

I can see the problem - putting stuff into boxes at the front every time you travel.

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