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Daveg

Weights excluded from MIRO

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Hi 

Been doing a bit of research into weights for towing .

Am I right in  thinking the spare wheel under caravan is not included in MIRO therefore takes up probably. 25 to 30 kg of my 150 kg user payload  !!With this , battery 30 kg ish and mover 35 kg ish , that's nearly 100 kg out of 150 allowance . 

Am I correct on this and if so is it worth removing wheel and putting it in car ? 

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I would think that if the spare wheel and carrier are listed as a standard fitting they would be included in the MIRO. Some entry level vans have the spare listed as an extra, or part of an option pack that's usually compulsory anyway. In that case the weight woud have to be deducted from the user payload. 

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It all depends on whether the caravan submitted for type approval had a spare wheel or not. By definition, MIRO does not include any factory fitted options, but whether this includes mandatory option packs is open for the manufacturer to decide. That's why the MIRO figure should be taken with a pinch of salt. It can't be more than a rough guide.

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Thanks gents . I will email Elddis . It was not an extra ,and seems crazy to take it off and put in car  for weight distribution . 

 

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In order to be able to rely on a definitive answer you would need to supply the chassis number of your caravan and ask them specifically whether the MIRO quoted for your particular caravan included the spare wheel or not. A general question whether Elddis include the spare wheel as a matter of principle is not necessarily going to result in a statement that you can rely on 100%. Besides, there could be other appliances or equipment fitted to your caravan which you think are standard and therefore included in the MIRO simply because you didn’t order them specially, but for the manufacturer they are mandatory options and weren’t included in the type approval.

Edited by Lutz

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30 minutes ago, Lutz said:

In order to be able to rely on a definitive answer you would need to supply the chassis number of your caravan and ask them specifically whether the MIRO quoted for your particular caravan included the spare wheel or not. A general question whether Elddis include the spare wheel as a matter of principle is not necessarily going to result in a statement that you can rely on 100%. Besides, there could be other appliances or equipment fitted to your caravan which you think are standard and therefore included in the MIRO simply because you didn’t order them specially, but for the manufacturer they are mandatory options and weren’t included in the type approval.

Even the definitive MIRO is subject to manufacturing variances, the only truly reliable and accurate  figure comes from a weighbridge!

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It largely depends upon the manufacturer. For instance Bailey state:

No water in the hot water section of the Alde against cc recommendation (cc=Caravan Council)

No water in the toilet cistern also against cc recommendation

They fit the spare wheel as standard but do not include it

They fit a 100W solar panel as standard but do not include it

They fit Tracker with its own support battery - admittedly only about 4.5Kg but it all adds up.

They supply an Al-Ko wheel lock and DO include it

The mains cable is also included.

They supply a jack which IMSMC is not included

 

A battery is more like 25Kg tops than 30Kg, and a mover (e.g. Powrtouch Evolution) is nearer or slightly under 30Kg

 

Its all a fiddle to get the MIRO as low as possible so when they fudge the MTPLM to make the van appear to be better suited to be towed by a smaller car it still looks like a decent payload - which we all know is never enough!

 

Edited by Woodentop

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Yes was just thinking " a bit of a con " 

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Just for info my steel 14" spare wheel weighs in at 17kg.

Being an older van with an out of business manufacturer I bit the bullet and took my van to a weighbridge to get a known starting point.

I then weigh anything that is added to the van.  It drives SWMBO up the wall.

Edited by onewheelonmywagon
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51 minutes ago, Woodentop said:

It largely depends upon the manufacturer. For instance Bailey state:

No water in the hot water section of the Alde against cc recommendation (cc=Caravan Council)

No water in the toilet cistern also against cc recommendation

They fit the spare wheel as standard but do not include it

They fit a 100W solar panel as standard but do not include it

They fit Tracker with its own support battery - admittedly only about 4.5Kg but it all adds up.

They supply an Al-Ko wheel lock and DO include it

The mains cable is also included.

They supply a jack which IMSMC is not included

 

A battery is more like 25Kg tops than 30Kg, and a mover (e.g. Powrtouch Evolution) is nearer or slightly under 30Kg

 

Its all a fiddle to get the MIRO as low as possible so when they fudge the MTPLM to make the van appear to be better suited to be towed by a smaller car it still looks like a decent payload - which we all know is never enough!

 

Not according to bailey web site.  MRO is as it leaves the factory. That includes original equipment such as Solar Panels etc.  Plus they allow for the heating fluid in the Alde and give a further 17 kgs for gas, electric lead and toilet chemicals. Also a full hot water tank.   

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So can someone please explain the "plate upgrade "that Elddis offer for free .

Maybe its me , but how can you have a max MTPLM then have this figure upped . ?

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45 minutes ago, Daveg said:

So can someone please explain the "plate upgrade "that Elddis offer for free .

Maybe its me , but how can you have a max MTPLM then have this figure upped . ?

 

Because physically the chassis, wheels etc can carry a greater load, but MTPLM has legal significance in respect to the licence held by the driver and the ability of the owner's tow car.

So they choose to quote a lower than capable figure for the MTPLM, simply for the sales advantages that brings them. They actually lose sales to a savvy buyer, but they are thin on the ground.

 

IMO the consequences is in real life unworkable payloads and running "overloaded", either just a paperwork overload but often a real overload. IMO again, it is a total disgrace and one reason we don't do UK vans, we buy where we can specify a build with a payload of the order of 300 kgs, not 150..

 

 

Edited by JTQ
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On the Elddis it is as it comes from the factory.  So if it comes from the factory with spare wheel, waste master and battery that is all included in the MIRO.  This is in the owner's manual in the first section where it is explained.

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53 minutes ago, Durbanite said:

On the Elddis it is as it comes from the factory.  So if it comes from the factory with spare wheel, waste master and battery that is all included in the MIRO.  This is in the owner's manual in the first section where it is explained.

 

That will only apply if the caravan was type approved with exactly the same specification as it left the factory.

4 hours ago, Daveg said:

So can someone please explain the "plate upgrade "that Elddis offer for free .

Maybe its me , but how can you have a max MTPLM then have this figure upped . ?

 

You’re absolutely right. There can only be one maximum. If there are two values and one is greater than the other then the lower cannot be a maximum.

 

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I thought there was MTPLM and MPLM. Theoretical meaning it could be done in theory- a greater amount and  subject to other conditions. 

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6 minutes ago, Ern said:

I thought there was MTPLM and MPLM. Theoretical meaning it could be done in theory- a greater amount and  subject to other conditions. 

 

There is no regulation, rule or anything else that refers to an MPLM or its definition, so it's just been dreamed up without any consequence.

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12 hours ago, Alan Stanley said:

Not according to bailey web site.  MRO is as it leaves the factory. That includes original equipment such as Solar Panels etc.  Plus they allow for the heating fluid in the Alde and give a further 17 kgs for gas, electric lead and toilet chemicals. Also a full hot water tank.   

 

I can only conclude that they have changed their own rules then.

When we got our Seville in Jan last year (now discontinued in less than two years!!) I asked what is and is not included in the MRO and what I put in my contribution is exactly what I was told.

 

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It just goes to show that quoted MIRO's are nothing more than a rough guide. The only sure way is to have the caravan weighed.

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Our Elddis is a dealer special Chatsworth which includes a few factory fitted extras and the MIRO is about 20 kg more than the Avante on which it is based. Unless extras are provided by a dealer then chances are they are included in the plated MIRO.  From the factory it came with the spare wheel so it is included in the MIRO but no battery so this comes out of the payload. According to our Elddis handbook the MIRO includes allowance for gas and some water but since I do not tow with these in the caravan this gives a bit more towards the payload.

 

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22 minutes ago, Paul1957 said:

From the factory it came with the spare wheel so it is included in the MIRO

 

Like I said, only if the caravan that was submitted for type approval also had a spare wheel.

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1 hour ago, Paul1957 said:

Our Elddis is a dealer special Chatsworth which includes a few factory fitted extras and the MIRO is about 20 kg more than the Avante on which it is based. Unless extras are provided by a dealer then chances are they are included in the plated MIRO.  From the factory it came with the spare wheel so it is included in the MIRO but no battery so this comes out of the payload. According to our Elddis handbook the MIRO includes allowance for gas and some water but since I do not tow with these in the caravan this gives a bit more towards the payload.

 

this is as good an answer that you are going to get.  Sometimes the rules are slightly different with different makes, but basically the MIRO is the caravan as it came out of the factory. The handbook will tell you precisely what your 'van's MIRO is and what it contains.  With my Bailey there is no water , no battery, just the lead , step and gas.  Things are also different as to what year the 'van is as over the last 10 years things have changed quite a bit as to what the MIRO contains.

 

8 hours ago, Daveg said:

So can someone please explain the "plate upgrade "that Elddis offer for free .

Maybe its me , but how can you have a max MTPLM then have this figure upped . ?

 the plate upgrade can be offered on some caravans because the MTPLM is not the full weight that the axle can carry.  The makers do this to keep the weight down so that more people can buy the 'vans and tow it with smaller cars, if that makes any sense. 

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14 hours ago, Alan Stanley said:

Not according to bailey web site.  MRO is as it leaves the factory. That includes original equipment such as Solar Panels etc.  Plus they allow for the heating fluid in the Alde and give a further 17 kgs for gas, electric lead and toilet chemicals. Also a full hot water tank.   

From the Bailey Service book 2018, page 5:

"The following Items are included in the MRO:

LPG - The mass of the recommended gas storage tank(s) when filled to 100% of the permissible maximum capacity. A mass of 10 kg per cylinder is assumed and the number of cylinders is equal to the number of connections provided at the regulator.

Fluids - The mass of the liquids normally remaining in the systems: Water heater system = 100% of the manufacturer stated travelling capacity (Bailey state 0%)

Central heating system = 100% of the mass of fluid in the system Freshwater = 100% of the manufacturer stated travelling capacity(you must travel with all water tanks empty)(Bailey state 0%)

Waste water holding tank = Empty Toilet system flushing tank = 100% of the manufacturer stated travelling capacity (Bailey state 0%)

Toilet system holding tank = Empty Essential fluids for the use of any other items of standard or factory fitted optional equipment = 100% of the manufacturer stated travelling capacity (Bailey state 0%)

Pitch Lead = 4Kg for the low voltage connection cable

 

Part of the MRO can be utilised as additional payload if you wish to travel without any of the above. The saved weight will = additional payload"

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19 minutes ago, joanie said:

Sometimes the rules are slightly different with different makes, but basically the MIRO is the caravan as it came out of the factory.

 

MIRO is not an ex-factory weight. It is the weight of that particular model of caravan as it was submitted for type approval.

 

Edited by Lutz

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Lutz;

the first link is what I and most people adhere to when owning a caravan  / motorhome. I think that most folk also understand what is meant by MTPLM, MIRO and payload in this instance.

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/caravans/articles/practical-advice/caravan-weight-loading-to-be-legal

 

Is this what you mean by type approval? Although the title is motor homes it does include caravans. 

https://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-faqs/type-approval

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50 minutes ago, joanie said:

Lutz;

 

Is this what you mean by type approval? Although the title is motor homes it does include caravans. 

https://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-faqs/type-approval

 

Yes, that’s exactly what I meant. Since 2014 it applies to caravans as well.

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