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davidh1996

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1 minute ago, DeeTee said:

Swift and Truma would be inclined to cite safety reasons and probably also legal reasons for not using gas to cool the fridge when towing.

The caravan fridge could be powered, when towing, by 12v electrickery supplied through pin 10 of a 13 pin socket.

I do not understand the point you are making. Swift has installed a device manufactured for the purpose of being able to operate gas appliances whilst towing or in motion in a motorhome. Are you suggesting that Swift and indeed Truma will advise a customer not to use the device they have installed on safety grounds because that device is not safe to be used in the way it has been designed?

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This quote from the Truma link is pretty clear

 

you can connect two gas cylinders in your motor home or caravan to the Truma DuoControl CS gas pressure regulator. The system automatically switches over to the second gas cylinder when the operating cylinder is empty. The integrated crash sensor allows you to heat your vehicle safely while you're driving. It prevents gas escaping should you be involved in an accident.

 

I think it safe to assume they produce kit which conforms to the law.  In the distant past I have run my fridge off gas without a problem,  if it does blow out the flame failure will activate.  

 

I accept that stopping for fuel could be a nuisance.  But I try not to fill up with the van on.

 

The same would be true for the heating.  
 

Perhaps Brecon could quote the actual regs which disallow this.

 

Out of curiosity, and only that, I would be interested to know the take on this by fridge and heating manufacturers.

 

John

 

 

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Rule 1 Transport of gas cylinders...……...the main shut off valve MUST be in the closed condition.

 

Dometic, Alde and Thetford went to all the trouble to put 3 sources of working in their products.

230v for when connected to a mains supply, gas for use if no electric is available and 12v to operate the appliance on the move.

 

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19 minutes ago, pfr said:

I do not understand the point you are making. Swift has installed a device manufactured for the purpose of being able to operate gas appliances whilst towing or in motion in a motorhome. Are you suggesting that Swift and indeed Truma will advise a customer not to use the device they have installed on safety grounds because that device is not safe to be used in the way it has been designed?

 

Not much use having auto energy selection fridge if the gas is turned off ?

 

The gas would need turning off in the Chunnel and you need to be aware if sat in a petrol station of ignition after about 15 minutes .

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6 minutes ago, Brecon said:

Rule 1 Transport of gas cylinders...……...the main shut off valve MUST be in the closed condition.

 

Dometic, Alde and Thetford went to all the trouble to put 3 sources of working in their products.

230v for when connected to a mains supply, gas for use if no electric is available and 12v to operate the appliance on the move.

 

If you won't apologise to me could you at least educate and state the legislation that applies. The Truma website clearly states the regulator can be used, so therefore legal(?), throughout Europe.

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I have nothing to apologise for.

The Truma information clearly states " The integrated crash sensor allows you to heat your vehicle safely while you're driving. It prevents gas escaping should you be involved in an accident."

 

It does NOT say that you can operate any other gas appliance.

 

 

6 minutes ago, pfr said:

Here is a link to the Truma FAQ's on the legal use of their equipment which seems helpful

https://www.truma.com/uk/en/faq/operate-truma-appliances-while-driving.html

 

That information is quite clear in that it relates to motorhomes, with an addition of a recommendation that a crash sensor system is considered for caravans.

 

The crash sensor is just for that reason, to stop the escape of gas if involved in a crash, but the rule for transporting gas is that the shut off valve must be closed, which makes it rather redundant.

 

 

As a footnote, I have nothing more to say on the subject as I am totally amazed at the advice that is seemingly so wrong is given out and flies in the face of safety

Edited by Brecon
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1 hour ago, Brecon said:

 

You may be something to do with legal things but never ever try and tell me what is right or wrong regarding gas safety.

 

get out of that !!!!

 

 

These are the offending unnecessary and frankly personal comments which do seems totally unwarranted, LE never told you anything and the post was very relevant? No idea either what LE needed to get out of?

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1 hour ago, Brecon said:

As a Gas Safe registered engineer and a fully qualified NCC Approved Workshop I am very aware of gas safety regulations and what is safe and what is not.

Are you qualified to work on LPG installations in caravans?  Not all GSR engineers are.  ;)

1401717673_Annotation2019-10-20120144.png.d70c895fa9029c63edb33c61c7bbeb08.png

 

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10 minutes ago, Brecon said:

As a footnote, I have nothing more to say on the subject as I am totally amazed at the advice that is seemingly so wrong is given out and flies in the face of safety

I only stated the existence of the regulator product. I expect an apology for your unwarranted outburst in which you allege I have given incorrect advice when no advice was actually given. 

Too embarrassed to say anymore?

 

 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Brecon said:

Rule 1 Transport of gas cylinders...……...the main shut off valve MUST be in the closed condition.

Transport regulations do not apply to private citizens - they apply to commercial/trade operators.

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I have looked further at the Swift handbook for guidance and Brecon is correct in that the system is designed so that you can use en-route heating but not other appliances. It further states that unless en-route heating is in use the gas valve should be closed. I am happy therefore that the system is approved and suitable for use when towing if the caravan or motorhome is fitted with this equipment. I am never likely to use this facility as I always travel with gas valves closed but it is obviously legal and safe to use a gas heating system when travelling if you follow the operating instructions.

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This thread is getting far too bogged down in gas issues when the OP clearly only had electrical connections in mind. There are reasons other than running the fridge whilst on the move that require power supply to the caravan and it's those that he hasn't taken into account.

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3 hours ago, Brecon said:

Are you for real?????????????????

 

It is so stupid to suggest that .

All gas should be turned off during transit for safety  and it is totally irresponsible to suggest what you have. 


Please help me decipher your posts.  To my mind they simply don’t add up.

 

Above you state that the gas valve should be off.

 

1 hour ago, Brecon said:

Rule 1 Transport of gas cylinders...……...the main shut off valve MUST be in the closed condition.


Again off.  But just where is this stated?  Whose rule is it?

 

1 hour ago, Brecon said:

The Truma information clearly states " The integrated crash sensor allows you to heat your vehicle safely while you're driving. It prevents gas escaping should you be involved in an accident."

 

It does NOT say that you can operate any other gas appliance.

Now it seems it’s OK if a crash sensor is used.
 

Why should Truma suggest it’s OK to use others appliances? That does not mean it’s not OK if that appliance has been designed for that use.

 

1 hour ago, Brecon said:

That information is quite clear in that it relates to motorhomes, with an addition of a recommendation that a crash sensor system is considered for caravans.

 

The previous link to Truma identified Caravans.  This is further supported by Swift for example.

 

May I respectfully ask that if you feel the need to suggest others are wrong that you actually quote the relevant regulations.  
 

I have no desire to tow with the gas on.  But if I did I would want to make an informed decision.   You are in a position to support your statements and be of help to others should you so wish.

 

John

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19 minutes ago, JCloughie said:


Please help me decipher your posts.  To my mind they simply don’t add up.

 

Above you state that the gas valve should be off.

 


Again off.  But just where is this stated?  Whose rule is it?

 

Now it seems it’s OK if a crash sensor is used.
 

Why should Truma suggest it’s OK to use others appliances? That does not mean it’s not OK if that appliance has been designed for that use.

 

 

The previous link to Truma identified Caravans.  This is further supported by Swift for example.

 

May I respectfully ask that if you feel the need to suggest others are wrong that you actually quote the relevant regulations.  
 

I have no desire to tow with the gas on.  But if I did I would want to make an informed decision.   You are in a position to support your statements and be of help to others should you so wish.

 

John

As you may have noticed there is often a marked lack of agreement between individuals.

As to clear cut rules which can be quoted, these are seldom clear cut, nor are they all in one place and much is down to common sense and inherited wisdom.

Gas is dangerous stuff unless appropriate safety precautions are in place and working and it is handled correctly.

Nobody wants to see a full gas bottle lying on its side on the verge after an accident with the valve open spewing liquid propane as a little stream across a road. (it does happen and I have personally witnessed it!).

Clearly shutting the valve is the safest option, but a crash sensor comes a close second.

Any appliance not specifically designed to be used in motion is highly likely to blow out, but could also suffer from the flame being blown away from its proper flue with the exhaust and any unburnt gas entering the vehicle (worst of all if a pilot light remains lit keeping the thermocouple hot but the main burner blowing out with gas still flowing).

 

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53 minutes ago, Stevan said:

As to clear cut rules which can be quoted, these are seldom clear cut, nor are they all in one place and much is down to common sense and inherited wisdom.


I disagree, the gas regulations are exactly that, clear cut rules.  Not open to interpretation.  And examinable.  My son in law has a number of certificates for mainly commercial installations, (not LPG). And is tested regularly.  His business and livelihood is dependent on those certificates.

 

I am very familiar with the construction regs.  I am fully aware that:

 

1. There are many myths that have evolved over the years therefore many incorrect interpretations.


2. Interpreting the regs can be difficult and requires training.  But when done, they become more than clear cut.

 

I am not too familiar with the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations.  However, realise they are written in the same vain.

 

Hence why I ask Brecon for clarification.

 

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

John

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3 hours ago, JCloughie said:

.....I am not too familiar with the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations.  However, realise they are written in the same vain....

GS(I&U)R 1998 Regulation 2(5) excludes motor homes and caravans (except those for hire in the course of running a business) from those regulations.

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7 hours ago, kelper said:

Are you qualified to work on LPG installations in caravans?  Not all GSR engineers are.

 

Yes.

CCLP1 (B), CCLP1(LAV), CCLP1(RPH), HTRLP2, HTRLP3, REFLP2, WAHLP1, WATLP2, CENWAT, CKR1, CPA1, HTR1.

 

The following are taken from the Swift Handbook, Page 77:

WARNING: Unless en-route heating is in use the LPG cylinder valve should be closed when travelling.

WARNING: When travelling using the en-route system all other LPG appliance shut off valves must be in the closed position including the fridge, cooker, water heater etc.

WARNING: It is dangerous and illegal to operate other LPG appliances when travelling.

 

 

It must be noted that en-route heating is model specific, it is NOT fitted to every model.

 

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7 minutes ago, Brecon said:

Yes.

CCLP1 (B), CCLP1(LAV), CCLP1(RPH), HTRLP2, HTRLP3, REFLP2, WAHLP1, WATLP2, CENWAT, CKR1, CPA1, HTR1.

Thanks.  Swift recommend turning off the gas valve, but is there any legal requirement to do so?

Edited by kelper

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No, there is not, as the "advice" uses "should" be turned off and not "Will" or "Shall", which would make it mandatory,  but sheer common sense would suggest that it is the safest way.

However, common sense seems to be sadly missing or just plain ignored if it does not fit with a persons view.

 

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4 hours ago, JCloughie said:


I disagree, the gas regulations are exactly that, clear cut rules.  Not open to interpretation.  And examinable.  My son in law has a number of certificates for mainly commercial installations, (not LPG). And is tested regularly.  His business and livelihood is dependent on those certificates.

 

Sorry, I meant "clear cut to the layman".

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19 minutes ago, Stevan said:

 My son in law has a number of certificates for mainly commercial installations, (not LPG). And is tested regularly.  His business and livelihood is dependent on those certificates.

I also have , as above, many certificates for the various items I deal with on a daily basis, and like your son in law I am regularly inspected and tested and have to re sit the entire qualification process every three years.

Not only is his, and my,livelihood dependent on those certificates, so is everyone life dependent on the quality of work I do.

Gas does not take prisoners, it kills without a second thought, which is why the pass mark for gas qualifications is 100%, nothing less is good enough !!!!!!

 

 

 

47 minutes ago, Legal Eagle said:

GS(I&U)R 1998 Regulation 2(5) excludes motor homes and caravans (except those for hire in the course of running a business) from those regulations.

Google is your friend!

Yes you are quite right in quoting that, but that only applies to the private individual who can butcher or change anything on the gas side of a caravan , providing that van is used ONLY by himself and no one else.

 

However, all installations are carried out to a standard and the makers have stuck to the recommendations as per GSIUR as that is the safest and best way of having a conformity of product that is proven to be the best.

 

In my work I come across quite a lot of dangerous bodge jobs done by owners who think they know best, but actually know the quickest way to kill someone.

 

Upon finding such things I have no option but to insist on remedial action or if that is refused, to cap off the pipework so that the system cannot be used.

 

Edited by Brecon

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Don't forget to mention that it's an open-book exam and that you get three attempts!  :D

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5 minutes ago, Brecon said:

I also have , as above, many certificates for the various items I deal with on a daily basis, and like your son in law I am regularly inspected and tested and have to re sit the entire qualification process every three years.

Not only is his, and my,livelihood dependent on those certificates, so is everyone life dependent on the quality of work I do.

Gas does not take prisoners, it kills without a second thought, which is why the pass mark for gas qualifications is 100%, nothing less is good enough !!!!!!


You have attributed that to the wrong person.

 

34 minutes ago, Brecon said:

The following are taken from the Swift Handbook, Page 77:

WARNING: Unless en-route heating is in use the LPG cylinder valve should be closed when travelling.

WARNING: When travelling using the en-route system all other LPG appliance shut off valves must be in the closed position including the fridge, cooker, water heater etc.

WARNING: It is dangerous and illegal to operate other LPG appliances when travelling.

 

 

It must be noted that en-route heating is model specific, it is NOT fitted to every model.


Manufacturers handbooks are notoriously poorly produced.  The second warning it entirely contradictory.  Yes you CAN use the en-route system.  However you must also turn of the heater shut off valve.  So just what is the en-route system achieving. 
 

Is the en-route system model specific because the crash valve is fitted, and/or because the heater is designed to be used on the move?

 

Just what might be meant by ‘other appliances’. (Not specific).  If fridge, then why?

 

As I said earlier, I have no intentions of using gas on the move.  But facts on its legal usage would be informative for sure.  So far we only have unsupported opinion.

 

59 minutes ago, Legal Eagle said:

GS(I&U)R 1998 Regulation 2(5) excludes motor homes and caravans (except those for hire in the course of running a business) from those regulations.


As I said, I am not familiar, presumably the LPG regs must be separate.  I am familiar with construction and building regs and guess they are written. In the same vain.   But that’s why I have been trying to get conformation from Brecon.

 

Lets try specific questions.

 

1. Is it legal to use  crash valve in a caravan on the move?

2. If so, what appliances are permitted to be used, and for what reason?

 

Evidence would be appreciated.

 

John

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2 minutes ago, JCloughie said:

1. Is it legal to use  crash valve in a caravan on the move?

2. If so, what appliances are permitted to be used, and for what reason?

 

1 Yes

2 Only the en-route heating system, NOTHING else.

 

However, if not using the en-route heater, then ALL gas must be shut off.

Edited by Brecon

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