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Sounds like you are complaining about the wrong thing. Its Mercedes cars, you should be complaining about, not diesels in general.

I have a diesel and don't even know what a DPF is !

Although DPF cleaners can sometimes help with prevention of a blocked DPF it does not help with the oil dilution issue, that some have,  when fuel ends up in the sump due to failed regens due to short

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1 hour ago, Guzzilazz said:

I've had diesels with DPFs for over 10 years, and have never experienced/noticed any of them doing a regen...  well over 100,000 miles across them all

With many cars, unless you monitor instantaneous fuel consumption the only clue to a regen taking place is cooling fan run on after switching off. Unless you do regular short runs, even this may be a rarity.

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Thanks folks -gives me some idea what to look for at least-as said, what a shame a warning light doesn't come on to let you know-easy to carry on running on occasion!

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  • 10 months later...

The long-running JLR DPF saga drags on and has now spawned a $5 million civil law suit in the USA.  

https://www.classaction.org/media/shaaya-v-jaguar-land-rover-north-america-llc.pdf The complainant Daoud Shaaya claims that "JLR NA  knew the Vehicles were defective and not fit for their intended purpose of providing consumers with safe and reliable transportation at the time of the sale and thereafter. Defendant has actively concealed the true nature and extent of the DPF Defect from Plaintiff and the other Class Members, and failed to disclose it to them, at the time of purchase or lease and thereafter. Had Plaintiff and prospective Class Members known about the DPF Defect, they would not have purchased the Class Vehicles or would have paid less for them."

 

Meanwhile, in the UK, a JLR insider has confirmed that the problem is caused by a lack of "passive regeneration" and the fact that a parameter in the BCM is always calls for "active regeneration" every 100-120 miles (even shorter in the worst cases). Dealers are asking buyers of 2020 diesels to sign a disclaimer acknowledging that a DPF self-clean (active regeneration) now takes 40 minutes  (previously they were saying 10 to 20 minutes). More in the tech guide https://www.dropbox.com/s/d0bcrd7sve4l598/D8_Dilution_Explained.pdf?dl=1

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The article the link goes to makes for very interesting reading indeed (it’s some 20 pages long so takes a bit of getting through, but explains a lot) 

 

It would appear that JLR are (and have been for some years) well aware of the issue surrounding certain variants of their vehicles, and, worryingly, also acknowledge that it’s  something that simply cannot be fixed. 

 

If the American class action lawsuit succeeds then, to put it bluntly, it could well finish JLR financially because there are a LOT of their vehicles out there which they have sold despite appearing to know about the fault and the impossibility of them being able to fix it. Its not inconceivable  the courts may direct them to buy ALL of them back, and that would surely break them!

 

I certainly wont be buying a JLR product any time soon, and if I currently owned one I think I would be looking to off load it ASAP. 

 

I for one will be watching developments with some interest.

Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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10 hours ago, D8 Group Action said:

 

 

Meanwhile, in the UK, a JLR insider has confirmed that the problem is caused by a lack of "passive regeneration" and the fact that a parameter in the BCM is always calls for "active regeneration" every 100-120 miles (even shorter in the worst cases). Dealers are asking buyers of 2020 diesels to sign a disclaimer acknowledging that a DPF self-clean (active regeneration) now takes 40 minutes  (previously they were saying 10 to 20 minutes). 

 

It's been said on numerous threads on this forum and has been admitted by JLR that on some of their platforms in order to fit SCR they have had to move the DPF away from the engine which makes Passive Regeneration only possible on much longer journeys.

 

As they have put statements out to their sales people admitting this I can't see how the class action will fail.

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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I find a couple of “Italian tune ups” help to keep  DPF problems at bay .

Hard acceleration in “sport “ setting , cloud of smoke from exhaust  and the pipes are clean , I do it regularly , and definitely prior to a vehicle test , the readings always come in well below failure limit .

I also do it with my MX5 , and the CO hardly registers  on the scale

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36 minutes ago, Compass Point said:

I find a couple of “Italian tune ups” help to keep  DPF problems at bay .

Hard acceleration in “sport “ setting , cloud of smoke from exhaust  and the pipes are clean , I do it regularly , and definitely prior to a vehicle test , the readings always come in well below failure limit .

I also do it with my MX5 , and the CO hardly registers  on the scale

 

DPF passive regen requires heat and prolonged heat  at the DPF.

 

When the DPF is not close coupled then the DPF relies more on Active regens.  In JLR's case the effected engines are trying to active regen that often that the vehicles are suffering significant oil dilution as well as full DPF's

 

A couple of "Italian tune ups" will make no difference to how these models perform.

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Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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Most cars & vans can not get anywhere near enough heat into the dpf to passive regen. Most of them are active regens only by adding extra fuel to increase the temps to 600c plus, hence why you can smell it. 

 

It always makes me giggle when people say they drive down the motorway in a low gear keeping the revs high, why? All that does is adds more soot content to the dpf and wastes morrison's finest blend. 

 

The dpf systems are controlled by the ecu, it decides when to regenerate, requiring no input from the driver. There is to much misinformation regarding dpf's on the internet and in the motor trade alike.

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49 minutes ago, Dave87 said:

 

 

It always makes me giggle when people say they drive down the motorway in a low gear keeping the revs high, why? All that does is adds more soot content to the dpf and wastes morrison's finest blend. 

 

 

I think that comes from many manufacturers guidance but is not specifically for passive regen it's to aid the Active Regen.

 

Here's VW's

image.thumb.png.192880b7750b1aa970463ef8f72b4b74.png

 

 

 

 

 

For some JLR models they are saying this can take 40 minutes due to the issues they have with heat at the DPF.

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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Provided you do regular motorway or other reasonably fast  runs you should have no problems if all goes right.  I had only one problem after towing the caravan from Chester to just passed Carlisle when the light came on. Given the hard work and long run the car had done that day it did confuse me, but the problem was found to be the sensor unit. 

I was told that a failure can cause engine damage long term, so even if it means a loss I would get rid.

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Our 2017 2.0 Ford Kuga Diesel 150 Powershift over the 3 years of ownership we travel just under 20,000 miles, apart from 3 or 4 journey a year towing the caravan and trip to the daughters 70 miles to see the grandson total less than 5,000 mile the remaining 15,000 miles on very short journeys less than 25 miles, absolutely no problems with the DPF or any regeneration problems?

 

 

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2020 Mitsubishi Outlander 2.4  PHEV and 2016 Swift Conqueror 480 HT

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3 hours ago, Dave87 said:

Most cars & vans can not get anywhere near enough heat into the dpf to passive regen. Most of them are active regens only by adding extra fuel to increase the temps to 600c plus, hence why you can smell it. 

 

It always makes me giggle when people say they drive down the motorway in a low gear keeping the revs high, why? All that does is adds more soot content to the dpf and wastes morrison's finest blend. 

 

The dpf systems are controlled by the ecu, it decides when to regenerate, requiring no input from the driver. There is to much misinformation regarding dpf's on the internet and in the motor trade alike.

 

I would suggest you go to the link provided in D8 Group Action post and read it carefully (20 pages so get a coffee and a biscuit) 

 

Its a bit of a long read but it does explain both passive and active regeneration, once you have read it I think you will change your mind. Most vehicles DO cope pretty well with passive regens BUT because of the distance between the turbo and the DPF on later JLR vehicles, they don’t ever get hot enough for a passive regen, so rely totally on forced regens, and JLR say that takes 40 minutes. 

 

Its a lengthy read but very interesting. 

Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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4 hours ago, Oscarmax said:

Our 2017 2.0 Ford Kuga Diesel 150 Powershift over the 3 years of ownership we travel just under 20,000 miles, apart from 3 or 4 journey a year towing the caravan and trip to the daughters 70 miles to see the grandson total less than 5,000 mile the remaining 15,000 miles on very short journeys less than 25 miles, absolutely no problems with the DPF or any regeneration problems?

 

 

Is that 20000 miles a year, or over 3 years? We probably follow a similar usage pattern, but over 12000 miles per year, with our Korando and have had no issues at all, over almost 5 years. 

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13 minutes ago, Dobloseven said:

Is that 20000 miles a year, or over 3 years? We probably follow a similar usage pattern, but over 12000 miles per year, with our Korando and have had no issues at all, over almost 5 years. 

20,000 miles in total

2020 Mitsubishi Outlander 2.4  PHEV and 2016 Swift Conqueror 480 HT

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Nearly all DPF vehicles appear to suffer very few DPF issues except certain later models of JLR. That’s because they appear to have dropped a clanger over the positioning of the DPF, too far from the engine so doesn’t get hot enough to burn off the soot during normal use. Owing to the overall construction of the vehicles the DPF cannot be located any closer than it is. 

 

In order to compensate for that basic design error they have configured them to do a forced regen every 100-120 miles. That forced regen takes about 40 minutes, so if not completed the engine oil gets diluted too much and the DPF doesn’t get cleaned. 

 

Its all detailed in the rather lengthy document linked to in a previous post. Do read it so you understand why JLR owners are having so much trouble. 

 

.

Edited by Mr Plodd

Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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Just now, Mr Plodd said:

Nearly all DPF vehicles appear to suffer very few DPF issues except certain later models of JLR. That’s because they appear to have dropped a clanger over the positioning of the DPF (too far from the engine so doesn’t get hot enough to burn off the soot during normal use)  

 

In order to compensate for that basic design error they have configured them to do a forced regen every 100-120 miles. That forced regen takes about 40 minutes, so if not completed the engine oil gets diluted too much and the DPF doesn’t get cleaned. 

 

Its all detailed in the lengthy lengthy document linked to in a previous post. Do read it so you understand why JLR owners are having so much trouble. 

 

We have had our  ePace 180d  for 12 months now and had no issues with the DPF, nor any sign of a warning light thus far.

Jaguar E-Pace 180D HSE R Dynamic - 2008 Swift Conqueror 540

 

"Unless otherwise stated, my posts will be my personal thoughts and have the same standing as any other member of Caravan Talk"

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Just now, Grandpa Steve said:

 

We have had our  ePace 180d  for 12 months now and had no issues with the DPF, nor any sign of a warning light thus far.

 

Have you read the lengthy document to see if yours is one of the effected models? Not all of them are. 

Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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2 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

Have you read the lengthy document to see if yours is one of the effected models? Not all of them are. 

 

Our ePace is affected due to the transverse mounting of the diesel engine forcing the DPF to be fitted away from the exhaust manifold.

 

We were grilled at the dealership prior to buying to make sure our driving habits were commensurate with the diesel engine.

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Jaguar E-Pace 180D HSE R Dynamic - 2008 Swift Conqueror 540

 

"Unless otherwise stated, my posts will be my personal thoughts and have the same standing as any other member of Caravan Talk"

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38 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

Have you read the lengthy document to see if yours is one of the effected models? Not all of them are. 

 

E-Pace, Evoque and Discovery Sport is the platform most effected.

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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Good job with any diesel we tow, lots of power lugging nearing twice the vehicle's weight, slow speed so no appreciable exhaust tract cooling and sustained powering for rarely less than an hour.

How completely different to using any diesel in a snarled up mega city environment, a big engine running at idle crank speed developing a handful of horsepowers.

Who in their right mind sold the D8 litigation plaintiff a diesel, however much they might have desired to own one?

It's not a vehicle that's not fit for the purpose it was designed to do, but totally unfit for what they purchased it to do IMO. Hopefully they made their usage crystal clear, then I think they would have an excellent case against the dealer. 

JLR along with any other diesel vehicle maker had been aware for 10 years of DPF regeneration issues and the application limits, by the time the plaintiff purchased in 2018, So there is no excuse that the issue was not addressed at the time of purchase, making sure the plaintiff knew how unsuitable any diesel vehicle would be in the congested city environment.

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But not everyone carries out a lot of (or indeed any) research before purchasing a vehicle. 

 

They base their choice on what they like to look of, and can afford. I have a very long standing friend who was, for many years, dealer principle at a main dealer. He often told me that many customer come through the door having already decided on exactly what car they were going to purchase. Engine size/type, colour, trim level plus any optional extras. He reckons he wasn’t so much  a salesman as merely a facilitator ! 

Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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5 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

But not everyone carries out a lot of (or indeed any) research before purchasing a vehicle. 

 

 Does that make a case for litigation if they then end up with a totally unsuitable vehicle for their purposes?

 

I suspect in our case we make the final purchase on what we want, not what the salesman wants to sell us, but IMO that's the way it should be. However, I  frequently know aspects of what I seek to purchase that the sales staff have not even realised. I wonder at times with the quiet periods, they don't read at least the brochure of the product they are selling?

Edited by JTQ
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5 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

But not everyone carries out a lot of (or indeed any) research before purchasing a vehicle. 

 

They base their choice on what they like to look of, and can afford. I have a very long standing friend who was, for many years, dealer principle at a main dealer. He often told me that many customer come through the door having already decided on exactly what car they were going to purchase. Engine size/type, colour, trim level plus any optional extras. He reckons he wasn’t so much  a salesman as merely a facilitator ! 

 

And that's before you consider the used market.

 

I've purchased eight diesels with DPF new and used and not once has a salesman discussed journey types and diesel suitability with me.

 

Most have been VAG and all VAG dealerships had an instruction to discuss useage with buyers.

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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