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Alan Stanley

MTPLM weight upgrades available

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34 minutes ago, Lutz said:

 

If the certificate doesn't refer to the VIN it's not worth the paper that it's printed on because it doesn't comply with the regulations. Not only must it refer to the VIN but also to the type approval number to make it a document of any value.

I agree, I thought I had a missing weight cert, so requested one, only to find I had the same cert I could put it in any van 🤔 

20191021_121639.thumb.jpg.e78315005dbec4d8cc2cbe0dd5e51ce6.jpg

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26 minutes ago, kiaboy said:

I agree, I thought I had a missing weight cert, so requested one, only to find I had the same cert I could put it in any van 🤔 

20191021_121639.thumb.jpg.e78315005dbec4d8cc2cbe0dd5e51ce6.jpg

 

The above certificate only certifies that the caravan complies with BS EN 1645, but that is only an industry standard and not a requirement. It doesn't document legal compliance with Construction and Use Regulations and it's those that refer to MTPLM.

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2 hours ago, Lutz said:

 

The above certificate only certifies that the caravan complies with BS EN 1645, but that is only an industry standard and not a requirement. It doesn't document legal compliance with Construction and Use Regulations and it's those that refer to MTPLM.

Which are longer provided with new Coachmans 🤔 is that another "thought" improvement?? I wonder 🤦‍♂️

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3 hours ago, kiaboy said:

Which are longer provided with new Coachmans 🤔 is that another "thought" improvement?? I wonder 🤦‍♂️

 

The manufacturer is, however, obliged to provide type approval documentation upon request. It would be needed, for example, if you take the caravan out of the country and want to register it abroad.

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After much Um-Err I'll probably bite the bullet and shell out the £60 for the plate upgrade for my Cartagena.

 

Out the factory and going by the sticker by the door I have a payload of 160kg which is stuff all. The 'upgrade' adds 118kg to 278kg and takes the MTPLM to the 1800kg specified on the gas locker plate - the one that specifies the VIN and lists individual axle weights. So confusing situation and lets no have argument with the law over what the legally allowed MTPLM is.

 

I'm lucky I passed my test (way) before 1997 and my car has the plated capacity to tow more than 1800kg so no worries. 

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2 hours ago, TenStar said:

After much Um-Err I'll probably bite the bullet and shell out the £60 for the plate upgrade for my Cartagena.

 

Out the factory and going by the sticker by the door I have a payload of 160kg which is stuff all. The 'upgrade' adds 118kg to 278kg and takes the MTPLM to the 1800kg specified on the gas locker plate - the one that specifies the VIN and lists individual axle weights. So confusing situation and lets no have argument with the law over what the legally allowed MTPLM is.

 

I'm lucky I passed my test (way) before 1997 and my car has the plated capacity to tow more than 1800kg so no worries. 

I did not pay for upgrade but made it a condition of purchase Yep a 100kg extra as initial payloads are pathetic 

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3 hours ago, TenStar said:

After much Um-Err I'll probably bite the bullet and shell out the £60 for the plate upgrade for my Cartagena.

 

Out the factory and going by the sticker by the door I have a payload of 160kg which is stuff all. The 'upgrade' adds 118kg to 278kg and takes the MTPLM to the 1800kg specified on the gas locker plate - the one that specifies the VIN and lists individual axle weights. So confusing situation and lets no have argument with the law over what the legally allowed MTPLM is.

 

I'm lucky I passed my test (way) before 1997 and my car has the plated capacity to tow more than 1800kg so no worries. 

 

If you simply remove the sticker by the door the caravan would still be displaying all the information that is required by law as the plate in the locker will still be there. That would be a cheaper solution. I would be interested to learn of any reference in UK legislation which may make such action illegal as nothing is removed that is otherwise mandatory.

Edited by Lutz

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1 hour ago, Lutz said:

 

If you simply remove the sticker by the door the caravan would still be displaying all the information that is required by law as the plate in the locker will still be there. That would be a cheaper solution. I would be interested to learn of any reference in UK legislation which may make such action illegal as nothing is removed that is otherwise mandatory.

 

Alko chassis also has a stick-on label on to confirm max weight

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8 hours ago, kiaboy said:

 

Alko chassis also has a stick-on label on to confirm max weight

 

The label on the AlKo chassis is of no consequence to the final product. Only the caravan manufacturer's plate counts, but that has all the necessary details, including the maximum axle load(s).

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13 hours ago, TenStar said:

After much Um-Err I'll probably bite the bullet and shell out the £60 for the plate upgrade for my Cartagena.

 

Out the factory and going by the sticker by the door I have a payload of 160kg which is stuff all. The 'upgrade' adds 118kg to 278kg and takes the MTPLM to the 1800kg specified on the gas locker plate - the one that specifies the VIN and lists individual axle weights. So confusing situation and lets no have argument with the law over what the legally allowed MTPLM is.

 

I'm lucky I passed my test (way) before 1997 and my car has the plated capacity to tow more than 1800kg so no worries. 

 

Thats exactly the attitude I eventually adopted as I didn’t fancy trying to argue the finer technicalities of weight at a continental roadside with a police officer whose language I didn’t speak! 

The whole situation is farcical in the extreme. I would however point out there is subtle difference between the Maximum TECHNICALLY Permitted Loaded Mass and the Maximum Weight that is specified by the maker who can specify whatever Maximum Weight they choose providing it doesn’t exceed the MTPLM. Yes it really is a right can of worms.

 

If you want to lose an hour or so of your life read my previous (and lengthy) thread) on this very vexed subject.

 

In the meantime pay up and look big is my advice.

 

Andy

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11 hours ago, Lutz said:

 

If you simply remove the sticker by the door the caravan would still be displaying all the information that is required by law as the plate in the locker will still be there.......

 

On the the caravan I have just sold (pre 2014) had I have removed the sticker by the door then any future would be buyer would have had a immediate problem in establishing its MTPLM for instance as there was no plate inside the front locker.

 

There are many on here with such caravans who reading your statement may be thinking 'has someone removed my locker plate'.

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20 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

Thats exactly the attitude I eventually adopted as I didn’t fancy trying to argue the finer technicalities of weight at a continental roadside with a police officer whose language I didn’t speak! 

The whole situation is farcical in the extreme. I would however point out there is subtle difference between the Maximum TECHNICALLY Permitted Loaded Mass and the Maximum Weight that is specified by the maker who can specify whatever Maximum Weight they choose providing it doesn’t exceed the MTPLM. Yes it really is a right can of worms.

 

If you want to lose an hour or so of your life read my previous (and lengthy) thread) on this very vexed subject.

 

In the meantime pay up and look big is my advice.

 

Andy

 

But the maximum TECHNICALLY Permitted Loaded Mass is at the same time specified by by the maker. The (possibly lower) Maximum Weight that you refer to is not reflected in any piece of UK legislation.

7 minutes ago, Griff said:

 

On the the caravan I have just sold (pre 2014) had I have removed the sticker by the door then any future would be buyer would have had a immediate problem in establishing its MTPLM for instance as there was no plate inside the front locker.

 

There are many on here with such caravans who reading your statement may be thinking 'has someone removed my locker plate'.

 

In my reply I should have added that what I had written only applies to post-2014 caravans subject to whole vehicle type approval. I apologise for the oversight.

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1 hour ago, Lutz said:

 

The label on the AlKo chassis is of no consequence to the final product. Only the caravan manufacturer's plate counts, but that has all the necessary details, including the maximum axle load(s).

Explain then when we had the weight plate upgrade on all our Coachman caravans, the new plate showed exactly the same as that on the axle label 🤔

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37 minutes ago, kiaboy said:

Explain then when we had the weight plate upgrade on all our Coachman caravans, the new plate showed exactly the same as that on the axle label 🤔

 

The statutory plate applied by the caravan manufacturer (presumably in the front locker) will already have shown the same 'upgraded' weight so, in truth, it isn't an upgrade at all.

 

Edited by Lutz

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1 hour ago, kiaboy said:

Explain then when we had the weight plate upgrade on all our Coachman caravans, the new plate showed exactly the same as that on the axle label 🤔

 

35 minutes ago, Lutz said:

 

The statutory plate applied by the caravan manufacturer (presumably in the front locker) will already have shown the same 'upgraded' weight so, in truth, it isn't an upgrade at all.

 

 

So for instance as might have been in kiaboy"s case, if the plate by the door showed say 1500kg and the plate in the locker 1600kg and if stopped by a licensing authority which would they use for a licence check, i.e. B, BE etc.

 

If the lower by the door was max for the licence holder the locker plate would push it over.

 

Forgetting the upgrade for the moment.

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15 minutes ago, Griff said:

 

 

So for instance as might have been in kiaboy"s case, if the plate by the door showed say 1500kg and the plate in the locker 1600kg and if stopped by a licensing authority which would they use for a licence check, i.e. B, BE etc.

 

If the lower by the door was max for the licence holder the locker plate would push it over.

 

Forgetting the upgrade for the moment.

 

From what I gather, as far as driving licence entitlement is concerned, the powers-that-be in the UK would be satisfied with the one next to the door. However, as regards being technically overweight, they can have no objection to being pointed to the one in the locker, because that is the only one that is referred to in any legislation.

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2 hours ago, Lutz said:

 

The statutory plate applied by the caravan manufacturer (presumably in the front locker) will already have shown the same 'upgraded' weight so, in truth, it isn't an upgrade at all.

 

Incorrect, well in my case, new cert comes with stick on labels.

 

I still do not understand why Coachman have decided to stop supplying the weight cert so I have emailed them in case my dealer has been given wrong info.. I wonder if other manufacturers have decided to do the same...

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1 hour ago, kiaboy said:

Incorrect, well in my case, new cert comes with stick on labels.

 

I still do not understand why Coachman have decided to stop supplying the weight cert so I have emailed them in case my dealer has been given wrong info.. I wonder if other manufacturers have decided to do the same...

 

Without seeing the certificate or the stick on labels I cannot make a final comment.

Do the labels that you have received from Coachman quote the type approval number and maximum axle loads, because if they don't they are not the labels referred to in legislation? Certainly if the certificate doesn't state MTPLM, max. noseweight and max. axle loads as well as the type approval number, it's not worth the paper it's printed on. Such information MUST be present on a type approval certificate.

I suspect that the label that you have been given is neither a statutory plate nor is the certificate a type approval certificate, but an NCC one which only covers compliance with industry standards, but has nothing to do with weights.

 

Edited by Lutz

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32 minutes ago, Lutz said:

 

Without seeing the certificate or the stick on labels I cannot make a final comment.

Do the labels that you have received from Coachman quote the type approval number and maximum axle loads, because if they don't they are not the labels referred to in legislation? Certainly if the certificate doesn't state MTPLM, max. noseweight and max. axle loads as well as the type approval number, it's not worth the paper it's printed on. Such information MUST be present on a type approval certificate.

I suspect that the label that you have been given is neither a statutory plate nor is the certificate a type approval certificate, but an NCC one which only covers compliance with industry standards, but has nothing to do with weights.

 

From a 3 year old BAiley

 

P1040012compressed400.JPG

It does show type approval number

 

Edited by Easy T

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34 minutes ago, Lutz said:

 

Without seeing the certificate or the stick on labels I cannot make a final comment.

Do the labels that you have received from Coachman quote the type approval number and maximum axle loads, because if they don't they are not the labels referred to in legislation? Certainly if the certificate doesn't state MTPLM, max. noseweight and max. axle loads as well as the type approval number, it's not worth the paper it's printed on. Such information MUST be present on a type approval certificate.

I suspect that the label that you have been given is neither a statutory plate nor is the certificate a type approval certificate, but an NCC one which only covers compliance with industry standards, but has nothing to do with weights.

 

From our old 2015

396500318_IDPlate.thumb.jpg.b49a752724f3dd149ec4fed0f99be1b8.jpg 

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Neither of the two plates pictured above comply with the requirements for a statutory plate because neither display maximum axle loads or maximum noseweight. The Bailey label doesn't even show the VIN and the Coachman one doesn't show the type approval number.

If the caravan was built since the introduction of whole vehicle type approval in 2014 there MUST be another plate somewhere, attached by Bailey or Coachman, respectively, and I don't mean any axle or chassis plate from AlKo.

 

Edited by Lutz

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Can't check the Bailey as I found a buyer for my neighbour in July/August

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50 minutes ago, Lutz said:

Neither of the two plates pictured above comply with the requirements for a statutory plate because neither display maximum axle loads or maximum noseweight. The Bailey label doesn't even show the VIN and the Coachman one doesn't show the type approval number.

If the caravan was built since the introduction of whole vehicle type approval in 2014 there MUST be another plate somewhere, attached by Bailey or Coachman, respectively, and I don't mean any axle or chassis plate from AlKo.

 

Maybe you could contact Bailey and Coachman and advise them of their error??

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The way that I understand it is that the weight plate in the gas locker is the legal one for what weight the axle can legally carry. The weight plate beside the door is a lower weight so that people with lighter cars can tow the caravan at the lighter weight.  If people wish to use the full weight of the axle then they apply for the weight plate ( the one beside the door ) to be increased. 

I was told by the dealer that the manufacturers use a lower weight so that more folk can tow the caravan, but they also usually charge us to increase the weight plate, so it's a win win situation for them. 

If stopped by the police the police will look at your caravan weight plate in the gas locker, the train weight of your car and your driving licence to ensure that you are legal. 

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I can't speak about Coachman but when Type Approval first came in (circa 2014) the labels that Bailey fitted in the gas locker were gobbledygook. Whether they'd read the regulations or totally misunderstood them, there gas locker figures were total rubbish. It took them the best part of a year to get them formatted correctly.

 

So if you have a pre 2014 van don't bother looking for a gas locker plate and if it's a 2014/15MY then the figures on the plate are suspect.

 

Oh and I do wonder how many enforcement officers know about gas locker labels and how many rely on what's highly visible on the outside of the van. And how many in the latter category need to be told about the gas locker label by the caravanner, who probably doesn't realise it's significance anyway. 

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