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aacaravans

Towing with a Peugeot 3008

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58 minutes ago, The road toad said:

I will second the 85% camp and together with a vehicle/ engine that can cope with any extreme conditions or gradients.

The 85% mark should be your absolute max when starting to match van and car or you will start having the van driving the car.

The 3008 may look like a 4x4 but it ain’t. 

I think you need a van around the 1350kg mark and a vehicle with an engine of 150 bhp and above. 

 

My 3008 is 150bhp and it towed our 1500kg MTPLM caravan without any issues.

3 hours ago, WispMan said:

Please avoid the Lake District as I don't want to lose my Life Insurance NCB.

 

I'm not sure if that was aimed at me because I don't understand what you're saying. Or was it supposed to be funny? If so I missed the humourous part, sorry. 

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57 minutes ago, The road toad said:

 

The 85% mark should be your absolute max when starting to match van and car or you will start having the van driving the car.

 

I doubt that we will ever agree on this unless and until someone actually publishes a proper scientific study.

However:-

There is significant anecdotal evidence that towing at 100% or over does not in itself cause stability issues with a good towcar and properly maintained and loaded caravan.

There is also significant anecdotal evidence that keeping the ratio below 85% does not guarantee trouble free towing and that an unstable caravan will remain unstable whatever is towing it.

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10 minutes ago, Stevan said:

I doubt that we will ever agree on this unless and until someone actually publishes a proper scientific study.

However:-

There is significant anecdotal evidence that towing at 100% or over does not in itself cause stability issues with a good towcar and properly maintained and loaded caravan.

There is also significant anecdotal evidence that keeping the ratio below 85% does not guarantee trouble free towing and that an unstable caravan will remain unstable whatever is towing it.

 

And the sun will rise tomorrow - all of which is no help at all to the OP or anyone else asking advice about towing ratio.

 

20 minutes ago, aacaravans said:

My 3008 is 150bhp and it towed our 1500kg MTPLM caravan without any issues.

 

Power/torque don't contribute to stability, just ease of progress.

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Whilst nobody is making aacaravans tow, until able to change the car measures can be taken to make it a bit more stable. Make the car as heavy as possible and the caravan as light as possible as well as the nose weight check. Wait until the car is changed before fitting a mover, put the caravan battery in the car, do not put anything in the caravan and remove anything in there that will not get used. Make sure it is drained down before towing, put any gas cylinders in the car, if possible put the spare wheel in the car. Doing this it should be possible to get the caravan actual weight less than the car mass in service.

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47 minutes ago, Paul1957 said:

Whilst nobody is making aacaravans tow, until able to change the car measures can be taken to make it a bit more stable. Make the car as heavy as possible and the caravan as light as possible as well as the nose weight check. Wait until the car is changed before fitting a mover, put the caravan battery in the car, do not put anything in the caravan and remove anything in there that will not get used. Make sure it is drained down before towing, put any gas cylinders in the car, if possible put the spare wheel in the car. Doing this it should be possible to get the caravan actual weight less than the car mass in service.

 

Sadly the emoji  :lol: to your post is from the OP, who clearly thinks your ideas are funny.

 

What amuses me is people coming on to the forum seeking advice, and then when they are not told what they want to hear, try justifying their choices and laughing at good advice.

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51 minutes ago, Paul1957 said:

Whilst nobody is making aacaravans tow, until able to change the car measures can be taken to make it a bit more stable. Make the car as heavy as possible and the caravan as light as possible as well as the nose weight check. Wait until the car is changed before fitting a mover, put the caravan battery in the car, do not put anything in the caravan and remove anything in there that will not get used. Make sure it is drained down before towing, put any gas cylinders in the car, if possible put the spare wheel in the car. Doing this it should be possible to get the caravan actual weight less than the car mass in service.

 

Sound advice and a route i took several years ago when a delayed new tow car saw me towing a 110% match to Cornwall and back (600 mile round trip). Sensible loading, speed and awareness are just as important as a percentage figure.

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10 hours ago, Charliefarlie said:

All the Talk of weights whether statistics are taken from the net the V5 or whatever isn’t going to help the OP. 

If he says it’s not good it’s not good surely ??? 

 

Sounds like a more capable car is required to me.

 

So long as the outfit isn't illegal, and from what we gather based on the information supplied it isn't, that is a decision that only he can make. He can to jiggle around with the noseweight, tyre pressures, load distribution etc. to turn it into something that he feels comfortable with. He already has both car and caravan. If he does only a limited amount of towing it's worth trying to optimise what he already has before taking a big and maybe expensive step by changing one or the other. After all, he's also got to consider the cost of having a heavier car than what he needs when not towing.

 

Edited by Lutz
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10 hours ago, Grandpa Steve said:

 

Sadly the emoji  :lol: to your post is from the OP, who clearly thinks your ideas are funny.

 

What amuses me is people coming on to the forum seeking advice, and then when they are not told what they want to hear, try justifying their choices and laughing at good advice.

 

My emoji response was because the advice given is impractical as all that extra faffing with moving the battery, gas bottle and spare wheel just makes me not want to go away. Plus we are a family of 4+dog, where are they supposed to go?

 

I can just imagine the conversation: "Kids you need to put this battery under your feet, this gas bottle on your lap and wifey you need to leave some stuff at home to make room for the spare wheel"

 

And when we arrive on site: "Is the caravan ready yet, nope I've got to refit the battery and then the gas bottle. OK I'll sit down, where are the chairs? There was no room for them so they got left at home".

 

Oh and lastly, we have a twin motor mover already fitted, should I take that off and leave it at home too?

 

I already said many many posts above that I loaded the car with all the heavy items and kept the caravan as light as possible but many of the retired folks posting here must have forgotten what it's like to have a family.

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On 09/09/2019 at 12:19, aacaravans said:


Unfortunately, it's not, the car feels unstable at 60mph, struggles to get over 50 mph on steep inclines and generally feels like the caravan is more in control than the car.

 

With the outfit feeling unstable, there is clearly something wrong and, IMHO, it's not just the weight ratio (I'm not convinced that this is even a significant factor!).

The two things that are easy to check and correct are noseweight and tyre pressures (all of them),  should be as high as are allowed.

Do you have a stabiliser fitted and is it functioning correctly?

Does it tow nose up? (controversial!)

Is the car suspension in good order?

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13 minutes ago, Stevan said:

With the outfit feeling unstable, there is clearly something wrong and, IMHO, it's not just the weight ratio (I'm not convinced that this is even a significant factor!).

The two things that are easy to check and correct are noseweight and tyre pressures (all of them),  should be as high as are allowed.

Do you have a stabiliser fitted and is it functioning correctly?

Does it tow nose up? (controversial!)

Is the car suspension in good order?

 

It's a brand new caravan and a nearly new car so everything should be working correctly. When I say "It feels unstable" I don't mean it feels dangerous it's just not as comfortable and stable as my previous caravan. I'll be checking the nose weight next month when we have the van out again.

Edited by aacaravans

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32 minutes ago, aacaravans said:

I already said many many posts above that I loaded the car with all the heavy items and kept the caravan as light as possible but many of the retired folks posting here must have forgotten what it's like to have a family.

 

When we had a family, and a relatively smaller lighter car than we use now we didn't choose a heavyweight large caravan - and in those days stuck to the 85% guidance more than many of today's caravanners.

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The answer could be to hire a capable tow car for the few trips away each year.  Everyone and the caravan would be as safe as possible.

 

There is nothing wrong with the caravan of choice, it's just that the car is not up to the job.  The 3008 is similar in specification to my C4 Grand Picasso (Space Tourer) which is a 2.0 litre 150 Blue Hdi  6 speed manual gearbox, and mine also struggles on some hills, such as the M4 east bound towards the M5.  I've been down to third gear and 40 mph on that stretch, especially with a head wind and I'm only towing a Pursuit 430-4!

Edited by Wunny

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Just to clear up any doubt, this is the car I have. Nothing like its ugly boring under powered and less capable predecessor.PEUGEOT-3008-0.thumb.jpg.24838e7bb300aedc5f65f42d89177639.jpg

 

And this is our wonderful new caravan:

 

DSC_0029-e1432810502773-1024x747.jpg.9bc96e23f5d3d9bf038c147ff5eb5c73.jpg

Edited by aacaravans

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12 hours ago, Stevan said:

There is significant anecdotal evidence that towing at 100% or over does not in itself cause stability issues

 

I can't agree with that.   In the '90s I used to tow an Avondale Quantock with a Citroen BXTZD Estate.   The all up weight of the caravan was 1100Kgs. and although the BX was a big car, the kerb weight was only 1025Kgs.   Naturally, I kept the van as light as possible by loading most of the gear in the car.   The hydro-pneumatic suspension kept the car level.    The engine produced 133lbs/ft of torque, so even the hills of central Spain were taken with ease.     But the instability was always lurking on downward gradients.   It wasn't until I moved on to a much heavier Citroen Xantia 2.1 that I experienced really relaxed towing.

 

1110878561_BoardingPrideofBilbao.jpg.2605703abbdaa27eed257ba42ca8c955.jpg

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1 minute ago, Jaydug said:

 

I can't agree with that.   In the '90s I used to tow an Avondale Quantock with a Citroen BXTZD Estate.   The all up weight of the caravan was 1100Kgs. and although the BX was a big car, the kerb weight was only 1025Kgs.   Naturally, I kept the van as light as possible by loading most of the gear in the car.   The hydro-pneumatic suspension kept the car level.    The engine produced 133lbs/ft of torque, so even the hills of central Spain were taken with ease.     But the instability was always lurking on downward gradients.   It wasn't until I moved on to a much heavier Citroen Xantia 2.1 that I experienced really relaxed towing.

 

 

I do not want to drift this thread too far, but there are far too many variables involved  to attribute the instability of one outfit solely to weight ratio.

Anecdotal evidence is good at proving that something is possible, but very poor at attributing specific causes to problems. 

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13 minutes ago, Stevan said:

I do not want to drift this thread too far, but there are far too many variables involved  to attribute the instability of one outfit solely to weight ratio.

Anecdotal evidence is good at proving that something is possible, but very poor at attributing specific causes to problems. 

 

 

A friend had a large Toyota saloon car towing a van ( type escapes me, possibly Avondale) but this was quite rounded at the front and not very aerodynamic. As far as I'm aware his payloads were all OK, but the rig wasn't steady at all, it would be very erratic when overtaken at speed by a large wagons, he couldn't go over 50 MPH with any confidence.  (He finally got a people carrier and was fine)

Edited by Dave Capiro owner

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There was a University study many years ago that measured the effect of towing ratios and speeds. Very interesting reading.

 

Speed and towing ratios both have a significant impact on stability and the ability to control the outfit if you have to make sudden direction changes at speed. 

 

They also measured other stability changes with loading etc.

 

I'll have to see if I can find it when I'm home.

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1 hour ago, Stevan said:

I do not want to drift this thread too far, but there are far too many variables involved  to attribute the instability of one outfit solely to weight ratio.

Anecdotal evidence is good at proving that something is possible, but very poor at attributing specific causes to problems. 

 

True, but it’s fair to say the weight combination of the car and the van in this case is sufficiently outside of being comfortable hence the OP comments - the tail may not be wagging the dog but it clearly has an unwelcome influence.

 

I’d be keen to get the loaded van onto a weigh-bridge to see what it actually looks like - I suspect even with the bare minimum in it won’t be far off the MTPLM!

 

Also as for the engine, I’m afraid I don’t think the 2.0HDi ‘blue’ is anywhere near as muscular in the real world as it appears on paper - I’ve driven a C4 Picasso with the same engine and whilst it had shorter gearing than our old DS4 due to the large frontal area and extra weight still wasn’t terribly punchy; it’s definitely a unit which appears to have 20% of the chevals leg it as it leaves the factory. My experience in headwinds etc (with the same van) is the same as wunny.

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40 minutes ago, logiclee said:

There was a University study many years ago that measured the effect of towing ratios and speeds. Very interesting reading.

 

Speed and towing ratios both have a significant impact on stability and the ability to control the outfit if you have to make sudden direction changes at speed. 

 

They also measured other stability changes with loading etc.

 

I'll have to see if I can find it when I'm home.

It's from The University of Bath and is called "The Dynamics of Towed Vehicles". I think that I have successfully attached a copy!

Unfortunately it finds more questions than answers, and does not go into weight ratios in any detail!

However it does show that:-

Speed is a factor (although it does not establish whether there is a threshold speed above which instability can be taken for granted, or a critical speed with stability both above and below).

Extreme end loading is a bad idea.

Friction based stabilisers help, but are not a magic bullet.

Dynamics of Towed Vehicles.pdf

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59 minutes ago, logiclee said:

There was a University study many years ago that measured the effect of towing ratios and speeds. Very interesting reading.

 

Speed and towing ratios both have a significant impact on stability and the ability to control the outfit if you have to make sudden direction changes at speed. 

 

They also measured other stability changes with loading etc.

 

I'll have to see if I can find it when I'm home.

This is another report from the Bath University studies https://purehost.bath.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/147993632/JAUTO981.pdf A quick look in the reports suggests the tests were only done to 50 or 55 mph.

 

Looks as if this topic is coming to a natural end with the OP not being happy with advice being offered. As for trying to insult older people, they have more experience having gone through the learning curve younger ones are starting.

 

Edited by Paul1957

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30 minutes ago, Paul1957 said:

This is another report from the Bath University studies https://purehost.bath.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/147993632/JAUTO981.pdf A quick look in the reports suggests the tests were only done to 50 or 55 mph.

 

Looks as if this topic is coming to a natural end with the OP not being happy with advice being offered. As for trying to insult older people, they have more experience having gone through the learning curve younger ones are starting.

 

 

A few pointed remarks perhaps, from more than one poster.  Yes older people have more experience, but there will be some who haven't learned from mistakes made in the past, and some young 'uns will be HGV drivers with plenty of towing experience.

 

I feel the thread subject will become more relevant, as discussed on  a number of threads already.cars are becoming lighter,  the large diesel wagons are becoming demonised by the media and legislated against by the authorities so more and more will have this dilemma.  The large twin axle as proudly owned by the OP could well be off the roads before too long.

 

One question, for those who car gas bottles in their car, do you have the hazard sticker on the vehicle to warn the emergency services in case of a crash?

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5 minutes ago, Dave Capiro owner said:

 

A few pointed remarks perhaps, from more than one poster.  Yes older people have more experience, but there will be some who haven't learned from mistakes made in the past, and some young 'uns will be HGV drivers with plenty of towing experience.

 

I know a good few HGV drivers that can back a trailer into an outside toilet but can't get to grips with reversing a a caravan, all due to where the wheels are on the trailer and how it articulates.

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41 minutes ago, Paul1957 said:

Looks as if this topic is coming to a natural end with the OP not being happy with advice being offered.

 

It's now it's getting interesting with links to research instead of the 85% and 100% dogma.

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13 minutes ago, Grandpa Steve said:

 

I know a good few HGV drivers that can back a trailer into an outside toilet but can't get to grips with reversing a a caravan, all due to where the wheels are on the trailer and how it articulates.

 

I expect they're ***** without a mover! 

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It's not an age thing it's experience.

 

I see 65 year old caravanners on site and they have retired and it's their first season.

 

I bought my first caravan at 18 (After a year with a trailer tent) and I've towed every year since, I've never been without a caravan since.

 

So that's 32 years caravan experience from a 50 year old. And towing trailers for work and car transporters for motorsport.

 

In my late 30's I was often "Advised"  on towing while filling up my water or chatting, being polite I didn't like to mention I'd being caravanning for around 20 years already. 

 

 

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