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klyne

Petition against new Motorhome Tax

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1 hour ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

I have looked at the cost of base vehicles, I run 3 vans in my IT business all LWB High Roof Transits. I have seen converted transits on sale at around £50k, the base vehicle is around £20k so how on earth do they justify 30K to convert? Bailey can manufacture a much caravan than a converted transit for less than £25k go figure!

 

Do they have  to justify it?  What the supplier has to do is produce a product which is perceived as desirable by the customer, it is the customer who has to justify the cost, after all they are spending the money. Isn't that the way it works with this type of niche low volume product? Actually isn't that the way it works with any product or service? 

 

Within my scale of values there is no way I could value this level of spend, but if others want to indulge who am I to comment. Value is a function of the person spending, we all have different values, to each his own. 

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1 hour ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

I have looked at the cost of base vehicles, I run 3 vans in my IT business all LWB High Roof Transits. I have seen converted transits on sale at around £50k, the base vehicle is around £20k so how on earth do they justify 30K to convert? Bailey can manufacture a much caravan than a converted transit for less than £25k go figure!

Most van conversions are based on Fiat or Peugeot base vehicle and both manufacturers (as I understand it) produce different shell vans suitable for conversion to motorhomes so I expect the cost might be slightly more than the £20000 you quote.  Even assuming your figure of £20000 is correct what you are ignoring is the profit margin and VAT. Let us assume your figure for a base vehicle is correct. How much does it then cost to convert it into a motorhome. Would you accept that £15000 might be about right for a conversion figure?  If you do then that brings us to £350000. We need then to add a profit margin of perhaps 15 % (which I feel is a bit on the low side) which adds a further £5250 to that figure and then of course we have to add VAT at 20% which brings the total to £48300. Which ever way you play with the figures you are still going to end up with a price of between £40000 and £50000.  A caravan or coach built  motorhome is easier to build as they are built up from the floor. I would be interested in your alternative figures.

 

David

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Just as a light aside!

Perhaps this is punishment for the Motorhome owners who stay well away from camp sites and park for free in ordinary car parks, on normal residential roads, on promenades, on beaches and the rest!

Whilst we poor caravanners cough up the site fees for our holiday stops.

Mind you - some would say it's worth paying for facilities, decent surroundings, security and the rest.  And usually a decent space between vans  rather than the "cheek by jowl" parking some motorhome owners seem to enjoy.

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2 hours ago, Squash said:

Just as a light aside!

 ... Perhaps this is punishment for the Motorhome owners who stay well away from camp sites and park for free in ordinary car parks, on normal residential roads, on promenades, on beaches and the rest!...

 

 

Now living on the south coast I recognize the idea of motorhomes   parking on car parks, promenades and nearby roads, but it is nothing to do with people holidaying, this is how some people live as an alternative to renting/buying bricks and mortar properties. 

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3 minutes ago, jetA1 said:

 

Now living on the south coast I recognize the idea of motorhomes   parking on car parks, promenades and nearby roads, but it is nothing to do with people holidaying, this is how some people live as an alternative to renting/buying bricks and mortar properties. 

 

In a word - rubbish!  :ph34r:

Perhaps a tiny minority but not the vast majority here and in Europe! 

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9 hours ago, klyne said:

Most van conversions are based on Fiat or Peugeot base vehicle and both manufacturers (as I understand it) produce different shell vans suitable for conversion to motorhomes so I expect the cost might be slightly more than the £20000 you quote.  Even assuming your figure of £20000 is correct what you are ignoring is the profit margin and VAT. Let us assume your figure for a base vehicle is correct. How much does it then cost to convert it into a motorhome. Would you accept that £15000 might be about right for a conversion figure?  If you do then that brings us to £350000. We need then to add a profit margin of perhaps 15 % (which I feel is a bit on the low side) which adds a further £5250 to that figure and then of course we have to add VAT at 20% which brings the total to £48300. Which ever way you play with the figures you are still going to end up with a price of between £40000 and £50000.  A caravan or coach built  motorhome is easier to build as they are built up from the floor. I would be interested in your alternative figures.

 

David

A few surprises when I had a quick look around:-

image.thumb.png.51f9cb8d24c3962d644dbc5b496b59b5.png

 

So £17,710 + VAT for the van

 

image.thumb.png.26e18509c2948f23abe3723488951831.png

 

£50k  inc VAT for the converted van

 

Which allows  £24k to convert. Compared to a caravan it makes no sense and the pricing IMHO is what the market can stand rather than what it costs with a bit of profit. With this in mind the converters should be able to absorb the price increase caused by the new tax which I still feel is justified.

 

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Just catching up with this wee Thread. Personally think we as motorist be it a small family saloon to a A Class motorhome are penalised left right and centre when it come  to Tax and where do they get this 700% figure from ? I thought Road Tax was based on the vehicles CO2 emissions ?

 

Absolute disgrace and would have stuck my name doon on the Petition but closed due to the "Joke" of a General Election..

 

GAS ...

 

 

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12 hours ago, Squash said:

Just as a light aside!

Perhaps this is punishment for the Motorhome owners who stay well away from camp sites and park for free in ordinary car parks, on normal residential roads, on promenades, on beaches and the rest!

Whilst we poor caravanners cough up the site fees for our holiday stops.

Mind you - some would say it's worth paying for facilities, decent surroundings, security and the rest.  And usually a decent space between vans  rather than the "cheek by jowl" parking some motorhome owners seem to enjoy.

 

Have noticed a big rise in the last few years in "Motor Home" wild camping as they say and may add seen the odd caravan or two. Travel regular to Stranraer via Ayr , Girvan down the west coast. Glorious part coast road and there is a smashing wee beauty spot that has a fairly large  car park , public toilets and the comfort of a small well run snack bar and I think I counted 20 plus campers all in a row on the shore front hugging all the car park space from the locals and travellers and they are there all the time mid summer.

 

Oh and have been told by the snack bar owner they very rarely use his facilities so most probably missing out on potential customers... Just doesn't seem right to me... 

 

GAS... 

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4 hours ago, Grumpy Auld Smeesh said:

 

Have noticed a big rise in the last few years in "Motor Home" wild camping as they say and may add seen the odd caravan or two. Travel regular to Stranraer via Ayr , Girvan down the west coast. Glorious part coast road and there is a smashing wee beauty spot that has a fairly large  car park , public toilets and the comfort of a small well run snack bar and I think I counted 20 plus campers all in a row on the shore front hugging all the car park space from the locals and travellers and they are there all the time mid summer.

 

Oh and have been told by the snack bar owner they very rarely use his facilities so most probably missing out on potential customers... Just doesn't seem right to me... 

 

GAS... 

 

Not wishing to "open a can of worms" many people will agree with you, including many motorhome owners I hasten to add.

Whilst ever car parks have no height constraint then they will be used.  

Many motorhome users actually seem proud that they have been away for say 6 weeks (indeed at least one forum member frequently refers to his "free parking") without once stopping in a normal camp site.   

If they use the "Airs" provided in say France, then all well and good.  Sadly many don't but seem to think promenades, car parks and even residential streets are fair game.

I'm certain everyone who travels around, especially but not exclusively in Europe, will have noticed the trend. 

It doesn't seem right to me either I have to say. 

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17 hours ago, klyne said:

Most van conversions are based on Fiat or Peugeot base vehicle and both manufacturers (as I understand it) produce different shell vans suitable for conversion to motorhomes so I expect the cost might be slightly more than the £20000 you quote.  Even assuming your figure of £20000 is correct what you are ignoring is the profit margin and VAT. Let us assume your figure for a base vehicle is correct. How much does it then cost to convert it into a motorhome. Would you accept that £15000 might be about right for a conversion figure?  If you do then that brings us to £350000. We need then to add a profit margin of perhaps 15 % (which I feel is a bit on the low side) which adds a further £5250 to that figure and then of course we have to add VAT at 20% which brings the total to £48300. Which ever way you play with the figures you are still going to end up with a price of between £40000 and £50000.  A caravan or coach built  motorhome is easier to build as they are built up from the floor. I would be interested in your alternative figures.

 

David

My neighbour bought a low mileage  year old long wheelbase high top panel van from his ex father in law and converted to a professional standard as a 3 berth. Hot Water and Heating both electric or gas. It took him about 9 months but it is immaculate. 

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11 minutes ago, Squash said:

 

Not wishing to "open a can of worms" many people will agree with you, including many motorhome owners I hasten to add.

Whilst ever car parks have no height constraint then they will be used.  

Many motorhome users actually seem proud that they have been away for say 6 weeks (indeed at least one forum member frequently refers to his "free parking") without once stopping in a normal camp site.   

If they use the "Airs" provided in say France, then all well and good.  Sadly many don't but seem to think promenades, car parks and even residential streets are fair game.

I'm certain everyone who travels around, especially but not exclusively in Europe, will have noticed the trend. 

It doesn't seem right to me either I have to say. 

 

Unless the area has signs stating no overnight parking I can't see an issue ? They are not doing anything wrong by parking if it is legal . 

 

The whole idea of a motorhome or campervan is it's designed to be independent from stopping on campsites .

 

 

Dave

17 hours ago, klyne said:

Most van conversions are based on Fiat or Peugeot base vehicle and both manufacturers (as I understand it) produce different shell vans suitable for conversion to motorhomes so I expect the cost might be slightly more than the £20000 you quote.  Even assuming your figure of £20000 is correct what you are ignoring is the profit margin and VAT. Let us assume your figure for a base vehicle is correct. How much does it then cost to convert it into a motorhome. Would you accept that £15000 might be about right for a conversion figure?  If you do then that brings us to £350000. We need then to add a profit margin of perhaps 15 % (which I feel is a bit on the low side) which adds a further £5250 to that figure and then of course we have to add VAT at 20% which brings the total to £48300. Which ever way you play with the figures you are still going to end up with a price of between £40000 and £50000.  A caravan or coach built  motorhome is easier to build as they are built up from the floor. I would be interested in your alternative figures.

 

David

 

I have seen panel van conversions at 80k and thought I can buy a  new Hymer A class for that .

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2 minutes ago, CommanderDave said:

Unless the area has signs stating no overnight parking I can't see an issue ? They are not doing anything wrong by parking if it is legal . 

 

Many do prohibit camping and sleeping overnight. Some don't. 

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5 hours ago, Grumpy Auld Smeesh said:

I thought Road Tax was based on the vehicles CO2 emissions ?

 

No it isn't.  It is based on the emissions per km measured in some experiment which is nothing like my own driving pattern (and probably not yours), and then probably falsified.

 

A tax based on emmisions would be entirely on the fuel because emissions are precisely related to the fuel consumed.  An ex-neIgbour of mine used his car about 25000 m/y including jumping in and out about 6 times a day to drive it from cold to and from the local corner shop 500 yards away.  The annual emmisions from his 1.3 litre car must be many times those from my 3 litre car, which does only 4000 m/y and those are mostly long-run M-way trips, and the occasional big load carry.

 

The VED is really a loose relationship to how well off they think the owner is, unless you are really well off and have a Tesla in which case it is £0 because that's hip.

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14 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

A few surprises when I had a quick look around:-

image.thumb.png.51f9cb8d24c3962d644dbc5b496b59b5.png

 

So £17,710 + VAT for the van

 

image.thumb.png.26e18509c2948f23abe3723488951831.png

 

£50k  inc VAT for the converted van

 

Which allows  £24k to convert. Compared to a caravan it makes no sense and the pricing IMHO is what the market can stand rather than what it costs with a bit of profit. With this in mind the converters should be able to absorb the price increase caused by the new tax which I still feel is justified.

 

OK I can see that it does not suit your argument but quite frankly you are talking nonsense. Firstly you insist on only looking at Ford vans which whilst they are used for conversions the first illustration would very much be considered a very small motorhome and the second illustration is of a campervan not a motorhome.  And yet again you are not factoring in profit margin and VAT. You can buy a basic, but perfectly functional van conversion based on a Fiat or Peugeot for £40000, if you want a better spec then of course it will cost more.

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14 minutes ago, klyne said:

OK I can see that it does not suit your argument but quite frankly you are talking nonsense. Firstly you insist on only looking at Ford vans which whilst they are used for conversions the first illustration would very much be considered a very small motorhome and the second illustration is of a campervan not a motorhome.  And yet again you are not factoring in profit margin and VAT. You can buy a basic, but perfectly functional van conversion based on a Fiat or Peugeot for £40000, if you want a better spec then of course it will cost more.

Well you may think Im talking nonsense but it illustrates the point I was making perfectly.  If you care to look at my reply you will see I had taken VAT into account as stated on the van prices. It's all academic really the tax is will be on new motorhomes / campervans / call them whatever you like - and rightly so it my humble opinion.

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19 hours ago, CommanderDave said:

Unless the area has signs stating no overnight parking I can't see an issue ? They are not doing anything wrong by parking if it is legal . 

What is acceptable is basically covered here but additional objections may be voiced if, for example, you park without permission on private land, or are deemed to have placed yourself or others at risk. Personally I would never park our motorhome overnight anywhere but a bona fide camping location.  

 

12 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

 It's all academic really the tax is will be on new motorhomes / campervans / call them whatever you like - and rightly so it my humble opinion.

I agree that we (the tax paying public) ever have little chance of changing the government's opinion but I still believe the imposition of a "car" tax on a commercial vehicle conversion is ill thought, and is already starting to have repercussions throughout the leisure industry.

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14 minutes ago, Gordon said:

I agree that we (the tax paying public) ever have little chance of changing the government's opinion but I still believe the imposition of a "car" tax on a commercial vehicle conversion is ill thought, and is already starting to have repercussions throughout the leisure industry.

 

The imposition is on a leisure vehicle - it's commercial origin is surely irelevant just as it is on a "van-derived car" - like cars, the additional VED over £40,000 list price is a luxury tax.

 

This move will put pressure on manufacturers to reduce the CO2 to below 190 g/km, exactly as intended, for the sub-3500kg vehicles.

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25 minutes ago, Black Grouse said:

This move will put pressure on manufacturers to reduce the CO2 to below 190 g/km, exactly as intended, for the sub-3500kg vehicles.

I hope you're right but in the meantime MH converters have a limited choice of commercial base vehicles to choose from with so many opting for the Fiat/Peugeot cabs with diesel engines. The car-derived base vehicles, with more engine options, only apply to the smaller estate car size conversions. 

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27 minutes ago, Gordon said:

I hope you're right but in the meantime MH converters have a limited choice of commercial base vehicles to choose from with so many opting for the Fiat/Peugeot cabs with diesel engines. The car-derived base vehicles, with more engine options, only apply to the smaller estate car size conversions. 

 

The majority choosing the Fiat/Peugeot base is presumably because they think it's the best - but there's also Renault, Ford, VW and Mercedes-Benz so the choice isn't that limited.

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5 hours ago, Gordon said:

I agree that we (the tax paying public) ever have little chance of changing the government's opinion but I still believe the imposition of a "car" tax on a commercial vehicle conversion is ill thought, and is already starting to have repercussions throughout the leisure industry.

But it has been converted from a commercial vehicle to a very highly priced luxury vehicle, I see no reason why the tax should not be applied. The tax is lower on commercial vehicles for very good reason - business, a motorhome is anything but.

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It's not an EU issue, our UK Government chose to use the international introduction of WLTP for VED calculation to bring private motorcaravans in line with private cars for VED, they could've chosen to keep it as before.

 

There are basically two types of motorhome. One is a panel van conversion (PVC) and the other is a coachbuilt. The former uses a standard metal body, whilst the latter uses a chassis cab and in simple terms, a caravan is built on top of it.

 

Again, in simple terms a PVC is more difficult to kit out as you're working inside the constraints of a metal body shell. A coachbuilt can have furniture and equipment fitted to wall panels and then be assembled onto the chassis. 

 

Generally the panel van that's used is a high spec. version, when compared to the run of the mill panel van seen on the streets and may cost more than £20k, even at trade price. However it won't be as much as our local decorator's recently acquired ride, a £33k plus Transit Custom MS-RT. 

 

Anyway, take a £20k Transit, add a £25k caravan on top, plus connect up all relevant systems and canbus issues etc, wack on a 10% margin and you reach £50k, of which £8,333 is VAT.     

6 hours ago, Black Grouse said:

 

The majority choosing the Fiat/Peugeot base is presumably because they think it's the best - but there's also Renault, Ford, VW and Mercedes-Benz so the choice isn't that limited.

The reason that the Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen X250 Sevel is the base vehicle of choice is that Fiat, especially, saw the potential in the market and had the van designed to suit converters from the 'off'.  To bounce the X250 into pole position they also ran v low cost deals from launch for converters and before you knew it the majority of motorhomes all looked the same. This has left all the other van makers panting to catch up and it's taken them almost a decade to come up with models that are easier for a converter to work with. 

 

The sorts of things that the X250 provided were power take offs ready to plug and play, an internal  width of just over 6ft on panel vans when most were between 5ft 6ins and 5ft 10ins, a panel van with a 6ft 5ins headroom after false floor and roof trimming were added etc, etc.

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1 hour ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

Anyway, take a £20k Transit, add a £25k caravan on top, plus connect up all relevant systems and canbus issues etc, wack on a 10% margin and you reach £50k, of which £8,333 is VAT.     

 

Well it wouldnt be a 25K caravan rammed into the back of a transit, you dont have to provide the walls and floor, you dont have to provide the chassis, wheels, alko stability whatsit, and the list goes on. As for canbus issues, sorry, I dont believe that, there wont be any canbus interface done on this conversion. That £25k I would suggest is a lot nearer £10k

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2 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

Well it wouldnt be a 25K caravan rammed into the back of a transit, you dont have to provide the walls and floor, you dont have to provide the chassis, wheels, alko stability whatsit, and the list goes on. As for canbus issues, sorry, I dont believe that, there wont be any canbus interface done on this conversion. That £25k I would suggest is a lot nearer £10k

 

I was talking about a coachbuilt van, which is very much like a caravan on a chassis cab. You do have to provide roof sides and rear and amalgamate the front onto the vehicle's cab. You have to wire in all the rear and side marker lights, so that they run in synch with the base vehicles lighting and you have to ensure that the vehicle is safe to be sat in whilst driving, if appropriate. Like a caravan, coachbuilt sides can be loaded with furniture and appliances before being made upright and the corners and joints sealed. 

 

On a panel van conversion you already have walls and roof but that in itself produces access issues that a coachbuilt and caravans  don't have. Everything has to go in through the side and rear doors and be fitted in a smaller, more confined space, sometimes very confined. You have to trim out the interior and insulate and fit a false floor, wiring and plumbing to an existing structure, rather than the pre-prepared sandwich board flat floor and sides of a coachbuilt/caravan. 

 

As said these vans come with cab aircon or climate control and lots of other goodies that you expect on cars. They aren't the basic model that delivery drivers get to sweat buckets in every summer. Often they have upgraded engines and even automatic gearboxes both of which add many £'000's to the starting price. My own van (over 10 years old now) is a Transit Trend model with a 110PS engine and £500 worth of alloys which were a cost option on that model. Most commercial  Transits are Base models with 85PS engines. The price premium on a 110PS Trend Transit is about £1,500 over an 85PS Base van and if you want the grandeur of the Limited Transit then you pay a further £2,845. The current Transit Trend of similar size and capacity as mine lists at around £23,000.

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On 10/11/2019 at 20:36, AJGalaxy2012 said:

Well you may think Im talking nonsense but it illustrates the point I was making perfectly.  If you care to look at my reply you will see I had taken VAT into account as stated on the van prices. It's all academic really the tax is will be on new motorhomes / campervans / call them whatever you like - and rightly so it my humble opinion.

You quoted £50000 including VAT but did you realise that the VAT comes to nearly £9000 so £410000 of which £7000 will be profit margin (for the retailer)  so we are now down to £34000  so even at your reduced price of £17000 this leaves approx. £17000 for the conversion which includes a profit margin for the converter, no idea how much that would be but we are actually probably talking about £15000 as the cost of conversion and by the time you take out the cost of all the equipment, (a fridge will cost between £600 to £1000)  I am not sure its an unreasonable figure. There is an added difficulty in converting a van as all the furniture has to be fitted within the shell where as a caravan or a coachbuilt motorhome it is added to the floor before the sides and roof are added which is much easier.

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One solution is the UK coach builder becomes the first owner and registers the vehicle at the first purchase from the base vehicle manufacturer at the base price before the conversion ?

 

 

Dave

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