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Electric Vehicle Charging Infrastructure

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24 minutes ago, 664DaveS said:

Difficult to have an EV if you live in a terraced house or flat and there are no charge points.

We have thought about a hybrid or possibly plug in hybrid, which alleviates the issue of finding a charger!

Could be plugged in at home. The high cost does not encourage us to change at the present time.

Plus of course the trade in value 3 years later!

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I’m sat in a Services on the M4 and have spotted a bit of a dilemma for those thinking of a EV whilst towing (which does include me). The Tesla charging points means you reverse into the parking bays, for other EV charging points you can drive in or reverse in, I guess depending where your plug is. Anyway the dilemma is, all the EV charging point bays are big enough just for the vehicle so if your towing your gonna have to dismount your trailer leave it on its own whilst you spend however long to charge up your chariot, surely this poses a security problem, can just imagine the insurance claim form, sorry had to leave van unhitched while I charged up my car!!

 

still no doubt someone may come up with a mobile charging point!! Oops was that a controversial comment??

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If the caravan is unattended the insurers only require a wheel lock and/or a hitch lock.  Where's the problem?

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, kelper said:

If the caravan is unattended the insurers only require a wheel lock and/or a hitch lock.  Where's the problem?

For me it’s the buggeration factor of decoupling ....presumably in a caravan parking bay, which will be in the farthest corner of the service station, then driving the car round (hopefully not having to leave and renter the services) to the charging points which will be in the car parking area. Trudging back to the wife on guard in the uncoupled caravan....then hoping the car charges quick enough to avoid excess time parking fines.

 

It reinforces my conviction that I won’t buy electric until battery charging (all be it a quick top up) can be achieved in a few minutes and carried out in petrol filling stations, where the pumps have been removed and replaced with charging units.

 

Its quite ludicrous to expect everyone to have charging facility at their home. None of us have diesel or unleaded pumps at home.....we go to a filling station.

Edited by ericfield
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Perhaps you can buy an extension lead to charge the EV when it can't be parked close by?

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Just now, kelper said:

Perhaps you can buy an extension lead to charge the EV when it can't be parked close by?

There still needs to be space to accommodate a lorry length in the location. And you can bet your life they won’t do a charger in the caravan bays......and if they did...you can bet that a solo car will have taken that too, just like they park now.

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This is where the various caravan organisations need to speak up and get on board with the various trade bodies that are championing the EV vehicle infrastructure. The old aying "you snooze, you lose" applies here. I was heavily involved in a lot of the rapidly growing network upgrade requirements for mass EV use and can categorically confirm that the charging of passenger vehicles drawing a trailer has NOT been considered  (or certainly hadn't six months ago).

 

Enjoy your caravanning freedom NOW. You've never had it so good and easy. Times are changing, slowly, but change will land on your doorstep eventually. Lobbying your favourite flavour of caravan organisation SHOULD be the correct way forward, but you'd have to drag the CMC into the 21st century first.

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5 hours ago, 664DaveS said:

Difficult to have an EV if you live in a terraced house or flat and there are no charge points.

We have thought about a hybrid or possibly plug in hybrid, which alleviates the issue of finding a charger!

Could be plugged in at home. The high cost does not encourage us to change at the present time.

 

The Dutch manage it, posts at the edge of the pavement.

 

 

1 hour ago, ericfield said:

For me it’s the buggeration factor of decoupling ....presumably in a caravan parking bay, which will be in the farthest corner of the service station, then driving the car round (hopefully not having to leave and renter the services) to the charging points which will be in the car parking area. Trudging back to the wife on guard in the uncoupled caravan....then hoping the car charges quick enough to avoid excess time parking fines.

 

It reinforces my conviction that I won’t buy electric until battery charging (all be it a quick top up) can be achieved in a few minutes and carried out in petrol filling stations, where the pumps have been removed and replaced with charging units.

 

Once they've resolved that lot, I’m sure another reason not to will come along.

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TBH I don't think that EVs are the way forward and are a "phase" at the moment with every one jumping on the bandwagon to show how green they are.  I am sure that a better means of propulsion will be found that does not involve fossil fuels which EVs use.  I am wondering what people would have done last Friday if they needed to charge their EV?

Edited by Durbanite

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EV's don't use fossil fuels!  My last supplier sourced only green electricity - wind and solar.  As I write this, 40% of the UK's electricity is non fossil.

Edited by kelper
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4 minutes ago, FrankBullet said:

 

The Dutch manage it, posts at the edge of the pavement.

 

 

There's always a solution, our problem at the minute is that we're trying to walk before we can run, so much more research involving more stakeholders needed to be done earlier. Amusingly street lamp charging points were widely accepted as the way forward, I was involved heavily in the connection side of this. Quite late on someone realised that in the UK lights are mounted aeay from the kerb to reduce the chance of damage from vehicles. Charging cables would then be trailing across the footpath!

 

Like it or hate, EV's are being pushed to happen. The UK isn't doing a brilliant job in several areas so it'll be a bumpy ride, but we'll get there. Sort of.

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47 minutes ago, kelper said:

EV's don't use fossil fuels!  My last supplier sourced only green electricity - wind and solar.  As I write this, 40% of the UK's electricity is non fossil.

 

As someone who works in the industry suppliers sourcing green energy is a complete joke and the suppliers know it.

 

Companies like EON, Shell and others claim they only have green energy but really they are saying the only assets they have in their generation portfolio are renewables.

 

These companies occupy over a third of the market yet at time renewable s are less than 2% of UK generation, Your house will receive what is on the grid at anyone time the same as any other.

 

Companies like EON and Shell are really bad as EON moved all their fossil fuel generation into a separate company they now call UNIPER just so they can say their customer facing brand is fossil free. And Shell claiming to be green, you couldn't make it up.

 

If they actually supplied you with green energy only you would be sat in the dark most nights.

 

I don't know why  trading standards allow the adverts.

 

56 minutes ago, FrankBullet said:

 

The Dutch manage it, posts at the edge of the pavement.

 

 

 

The Dutch have done it the correct way.  A direct Government policy and investment in the infrastructure . A clear direction and a solution the people want to move into.

 

In the UK  the charging infrastructure is left to market forces mainly so we get low take up, expensive charging rates, a miss-match of charging types and poor service and maintenance.

It leaves buyers apprehensive about a move to EV.

 

Typical UK really.

Edited by logiclee
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Renewables make up more than 2%.  To get my Feed-in-tariff for my house solar I had to be on a green tariff for supply.  As you say, it all 'comes down the same pipe', but my supplier was buying his energy from renewable sources/companies.  It was nPower.  A description of their 'Juice' tariff says, "We match your energy consumption unit for unit by purchasing the same amount generated from a renewable source." 

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7 hours ago, Bolingbroke said:

 

The inability to charge an EV in the Australian Outback (location of the OP story) is not holding me back from buying an EV at all. There are not many places in Western Europe that do not have mains electricity, and not enough of those to be an obstacle to installing enough mains-powered charging points to make EVs practicable. 

 

What holds me back is the cost of an EV, its range (charging points or not), its safety (see picture in my post above), and how the battery will last longer term. I shall wait and see. The hype, smugness and evangelising of EV advocacy is also an off-putting factor I must admit; a matter of fact approach would be far better.

 

That's  why I said one of the reasons.

3 hours ago, ericfield said:

There still needs to be space to accommodate a lorry length in the location. And you can bet your life they won’t do a charger in the caravan bays......and if they did...you can bet that a solo car will have taken that too, just like they park now.

 

Touring caravans will probably be a thing of the past, replaced by MH or static caravans.

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1 hour ago, kelper said:

Renewables make up more than 2%.

 

Not all the time and that's where these company's adverts are misleading.

 

For example.

There's no solar at night and during the beast from the east with a high pressure system sat on the UK wind generation was supplying less than 2% of the UK's 50GW demand.

For the 8 days of that weather system wind averaged less than 4%

Edited by logiclee

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9 hours ago, Bolingbroke said:

 

The inability to charge an EV in the Australian Outback (location of the OP story) is not holding me back from buying an EV at all. There are not many places in Western Europe that do not have mains electricity, and not enough of those to be an obstacle to installing enough mains-powered charging points to make EVs practicable. 

 

What holds me back is the cost of an EV, its range (charging points or not), its safety (see picture in my post above), and how the battery will last longer term. I shall wait and see. The hype, smugness and evangelising of EV advocacy is also an off-putting factor I must admit; a matter of fact approach would be far better.

 

"One of the things"

 

Despite all the negativity that you mention, other people are buying them. They aren't for everyone. It will be some years (if ever) before our main car is an EV.

 

"Smugness and evangelising"? 

 

I've not experienced that myself.  

9 hours ago, Durbanite said:

Plus of course the trade in value 3 years later!

 

They seem to be doing pretty well so far.

6 hours ago, ericfield said:

There still needs to be space to accommodate a lorry length in the location. And you can bet your life they won’t do a charger in the caravan bays......and if they did...you can bet that a solo car will have taken that too, just like they park now.

 

Electric lorries, coaches and goods vehicles are a thing I believe

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4 hours ago, kelper said:

EV's don't use fossil fuels!  My last supplier sourced only green electricity - wind and solar.  As I write this, 40% of the UK's electricity is non fossil.

They might not use fossil fuels, although that's extremely debatable. However they do emit carbon emissions one way or the other. 

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2 minutes ago, fredsautos said:

They might not use fossil fuels, although that's extremely debatable. However they do emit carbon emissions one way or the other. 

Yes, but power stations emit lower emissions per kWh due to higher efficiencies and scrubbers.  Plus, they reduce town centre pollution. 

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14 minutes ago, kelper said:

Yes, but power stations emit lower emissions per kWh due to higher efficiencies and scrubbers.  Plus, they reduce town centre pollution. 

That's the whole point though electric cars reduce air pollution in cities, fair enough. But to say they don't cause carbon emissions is not true. 

 

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12 hours ago, Bolingbroke said:

What holds me back is the cost of an EV, its range (charging points or not), its safety (see picture in my post above), and how the battery will last longer term. I shall wait and see. The hype, smugness and evangelising of EV advocacy is also an off-putting factor I must admit; a matter of fact approach would be far better.

 

For me the safety aspect and how long batteries will last are not red line issues, however I totally agree about the evangelistic approach of some RV supporters which is getting right up my nose. 

 

The use of ICE, petrol and diesel for motor vehicles , has been absolutely pivotel to how the world has developed and where we are today after nearly 125 years of development.  If we are now in a different place and believe that there have to be alternative fuels for our motor vehicles then so be it.  However to decry and demoise ICE, petrol and diesel as fuel sources seems highly disingenuous to our past, we are where we are ONLY  because of everything that has gone before; this has been a virtual 100% commitment to fossil fuels.   We can't just write off that part of history, it is what makes us who/what we are. 

 

There are number of EV evangelists (such as Robert Llewellyn on Fully Charged)  who are highly supportive of EV's but they go beyond support for new technologies and demonise fossil fuels at ever single opportunity.  In my book that is not the way to go about getting support for alternative energy sources for the future. 

 

As already mentioned in another thread the UK's development of EV charging infrastructure is simply appalling, the government, who should be leading the move to EV's, have simply ducked their reponsibility. Local government finances are up the creek without a paddle so there is no way we can expect to see any sort of proactive consistent approach from that direction. To their credit Tesla have invested in a charging infrastructure for their vehicles which puts all other attempts to provide for EV's to shame. 

 

At this moment it is very difficult to justify EV's on purely financial grounds, thankfully there are many people who are willing to give this new technology "a punt" even if it costs them. However we are  long way off EV being a financially viable option for the vast majority of the population. Sure there is a fuel cost advantage at the moment but but the saving is a long way short of providing  financial justification for buying into EV's. 

 

In our family Mrs JatA1's car usage is perfect for it to be substituted by EV in preference to ICE. However, strictly from a financial point of view, an EV would be an extravagance. Currently with a capital cost of £2500 and an annual mileage of 3,500 miles she doesn't use enough fossil fuel for there to be a significant financial saving.  I'd like to give EV a go but haven't got the spare cash to enable it. Robert Llewellyn (et al) can scream at me until they are blu in the face but unless he is willing to subsidise me then there is no financial justification for an EV.  If he is sufficently well off that he can take a financial hit on his motoring finances in order to follow his EV dreams then good on him  .... but he is wrong to demonise the rest of us because we are not as well of as he is and able to indulge our environmental fantasies. 

Edited by jetA1
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I think despite it being the “in thing”, manufacturers still see EV’s as their top of the range vehicles, as in they price petrol then diesel then EV’s.

If they truly wanted to promote and sell more of them the price point would be below petrol and diesel,  making them financially attractive without relying on government subsidies.

 

i know they want to recover the cost of development, but by selling more over a shorted period of time at a lower margin will achieve the same outcome as selling a few over a longer period for more money.

 

I also think the infrastructure needs to be built regardless, and if Kevin Costner’s dad was right in the film Field of Dreams - “If you build it they will come”

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I work for a US company that manufacturers the dreaded diesel engine. They are diversifying and creating a new division to satisfy the electric truck market as they do not want to suffer the same fate as Kodak (who I believe developed one of the first digital cameras which was canned by the management)

 

But the corporate news is that there will still be demand for certain types of engine for a long while to come. Hopefully for another 5 years then I am out the door :D

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48 minutes ago, Grandpa Steve said:

I think despite it being the “in thing”, manufacturers still see EV’s as their top of the range vehicles, as in they price petrol then diesel then EV’s.

If they truly wanted to promote and sell more of them the price point would be below petrol and diesel,  making them financially attractive without relying on government subsidies.

 

i know they want to recover the cost of development, but by selling more over a shorted period of time at a lower margin will achieve the same outcome as selling a few over a longer period for more money.

 

I also think the infrastructure needs to be built regardless, and if Kevin Costner’s dad was right in the film Field of Dreams - “If you build it they will come”

 

We are probably two car generations away from that and that will put us around 2030. As the Government is proposing bringing forward the ban on sales of Internal Combustion Engined passenger cars to 2032 it probably sits right timescale wise.

 

Cars like the Tesla and I-Pace are brilliant to drive but expensive and the charging infrastructure is lacking in the UK.

 

Next year we see the big volume boys start the big sale push. Still quite a premium on the Golf/Passat though.

 

https://www.whatcar.com/news/2020-volkswagen-id-3-review-price-specs-and-release-date/n19745 

 

 

Edited by logiclee

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The through-life and to recycling carbon costs of an EV probably still exceed those of an ICE-powered car.  But, we have to start somewhere.  and they do stop the toxic concentrations of NOx and particulates in our cities.

 

USA, EU and other countries, set corporate average fuel consumption targets.  To meet these manufacturers have to constantly improve.  EVs have approximately 50% of the fuel consumption of ICE cars, so more and more EVs are being introduced.  We can expect the proportion of EVs sold to rise year on year.  This will bring down unit costs.

 

China is also mandating that manufacturers sell 8% of their cars as EVs.

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Looks as if sourcing the lithium for the batteries can cause environmental problems from this BBC report https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49207042 

In the reported area in Chile an underground reservoir under a salt flat contains lithium salts. The water is pumped to the surface and allowed to evaporate leaving lithium salts which can be used to produce lithium. Fresh water is being extracted to clean things and produce potash which then leaves other areas short of water.

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