Are we being ripped off?

[Ern]

10 hours ago, smino0_1 said:

So ,with all of the above post taken onboard ,its said that no matter what the bottle weighs empty it will always have 6kg(ish) of gas.great,

But when trying to establish a total weight,there is still a big tolerance. of x2 bottles can be as much as 10kg+ it prob no wonder folk cannot get there nose weights correct,if we keep having to check bottle weights.

So im off to lite the cadac,put the heating on gas  along with the fridge and have toast from under the grill and 10 min boiled eggs for breakfast all so i can tow the van home.

Nice one! Tow home on an egg. 

[CommanderDave]

How does the difference in temperature effect the weight as the gas in the bottle expands when it gets warmer ?

 

 

 

Dave

 

 

 

[AndersG]

10 hours ago, Ern said:

Any variation of weight due to the filling process should be on the plus side according to the principles of fair trading.

 

You can't overfill a gas bottle. Any variation has to be on the negative side.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, AndersG said:

You can't overfill a gas bottle.

Of course you can!  You are supposed to leave room for thee liquid to expand.  If you fill a bottle to 100% and its gets warmer, either the bottle fails or the pressure relief valve starts spraying liquid out - extremely hazardous.  80% is the fullest it is safe to go.

[AndersG]

20 minutes ago, kelper said:

Of course you can!  You are supposed to leave room for thee liquid to expand.  If you fill a bottle to 100% and its gets warmer, either the bottle fails or the pressure relief valve starts spraying liquid out - extremely hazardous.  80% is the fullest it is safe to go.

Calor cannot decide to fill a 6kg with 6.1kg to have the variation on the plus side.

[Guest]

Surely, the correct fill will be 6kg plus or minus a small amount?  The average must exceed 6kg, the same as for petrol pumps.  It's illegal to sell short measures.

From Trading Standards

 

Propane / LPG meters are not controlled by weights and measures legislation so there are no associated legal limits of error. However, the equipment is 'in use for trade' as it measures product for which payment is made and its performance in terms of accuracy should be comparable with road-tanker metering systems that operate to +/- 0.5% of the quantity delivered.

 

BOTTLED GAS

Bottled gas is sold by reference to the net weight of the contents (in kilograms), which should be clearly marked on the cylinder (and should also say 'butane' or 'propane').

The bottling plant where the cylinders are filled must use accurate weighing or measuring equipment that has been checked and tested to ensure accuracy. Net weight = the weight full (gross weight) less the container empty (tare weight). The empty (tare) weight is normally on the neck or rim of the cylinder or on a permanent label.

[bobthevanman]

Perhaps a 100g?   Your comment on "principles of fair trading" is interesting, if you look at virtually any item you buy with a declared weight on you will see it is followed by a small e , this denotes it has been packed under average weight legislation and can be sold legally under the declared weight with strict rules applying. These rules are very specific and do not contain "ish" or "roughly" I am not saying calor operate under this legislation but the principle is the same, they would not risk underfilling every bottle they fill.

[DACS]

59 minutes ago, CommanderDave said:

How does the difference in temperature effect the weight as the gas in the bottle expands when it gets warmer ?

 

 

 

Dave

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, AndersG said:

Calor cannot decide to fill a 6kg with 6.1kg to have the variation on the plus side.

They can if the cylinders are sized to accommodate 6.1 kg when 80% full.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, CommanderDave said:

How does the difference in temperature effect the weight as the gas in the bottle expands when it gets warmer ?

The gas does not expand since the internal volume of the cylinder is fixed.  The liquid may expand and the pressure will rise.  But this has zero effect on the mass or weight of the contents.

[Stevan]

It is impossible to sell anything to a precise weight. No matter how accurately anything is weighed or measured it will be accompanied by a tolerance! Sometimes this tolerance is clearly stated, more often it is merely implied.

Even in scientific environments there are tolerances, they  just tend to be very small ones! 

Whether the tolerance is +/- 5% or +/- 0.005%, or if it is 5g or 0.005g, it is still a tolerance!

This is one of the hidden advantages of the non-metric measures.

If something is measured in (say) pounds there is an implied tolerance of +/- an ounce. If you buy (say) 1lb of grass seed you expect it to be between 15oz and 17oz, an easy tolerance for a retailer to work to.

 

If you use the preferred metric measure you would be buying 500g, (or worse still, the measure marked on the packet is likely to be something like 435g) which implies a tolerance of +/-1g , something which is quite difficult  to work to outside a scientific environment.

[Guest]

So what is the implied tolerance if you buy twelve ounces?  Or a pint of beer?  Trading standards use percentages not absolutes.

[bobthevanman]

Using the metric system is far easier in terms of percentages/tolerances, plus lets have some examples of these mostly implied tolerances on declared weights?

[Bobajob63]

Weight is something I don’t have to worry about these days- if I ever did.  I kicked my Calor Cylinders out when I went nonEHU some 6 years ago. Safefill cylinders, which now adorn my gas locker, are easy to fill and there is no question of being short changed.  and the savings in LPG costs have been astounding. Certainly, the SFs have been paid for easily with the saved rental rip off.  Calor and Co  have been fighting Safefill from day one.  They would love nothing better than for Safefill to go away and die! They,  Calor, have been used to a revenue stream through rental charges that is almost unimaginable to a mere mortal and anything that challenges that has to be opposed.  The Leisure community ie , the caravanning ,  motorhome and camping fraternities have had the brunt of high rental charges since day one. Now I know and understand that some use so little gas that going out and buying a Safefill for £150 or so wouldn’t make sense- I get that.  However,  it remains a fact that for every £25 spent on a rental cylinder- about £6 is for the gas! With that knowledge, I think, no- I know,  I would have gone and bought one anyway just to redress the balance whether I used a little gas, or, in my case, a fair amount. To think I can visit my daughter in Bristol, nip into Andy’s Gas and refill any of my SFs for 49p a litre (98p kg) is liberating to say the least. Work that out for 6 kg! 

 

Technology moves on in every field- even something as simple as an LPG cylinder-  but it seems that Calor have got so used to an almost magical revenue stream, they seem incapable of understanding that the day of the rental cylinder ruling supreme has passed. In 2009 when the Safefill appeared at the Trade Show in Germany and later at the NEC in Britain, it caused so much consternation in the industry, battle lines were drawn and those battles are still being fought today  although Safefill has won through thanks to the almost unbelievable determination of Mr Worthington at Safefill.  The dirty tricks dept have worked overtime or should I say non stop to put blocks , banana skins and bias in his way.  What he has done almost single handedly is he has given us, CHOICE. Something we didn’t have 10 yrs ago- if you wanted gas, and who didn’t, ?you bought your two Calor cylinders, with a rental agreement of course, which was simply a way of squeezing even more money out of you, and then,  you paid through the nose every time one emptied! Now, we have that choice and I choose not to pay swingeing rental costs. I choose Safefill. Others of course, thousands of others choose Gaslow or Gas it etc  and to a man, find a new price  freedom regarding the use of LPG.  Morrison’s is proof that the mould is being broken and not before time. But in the end, it will be people power that will determine whether Calor can continue raking the cash or whether refillables will become the norm and LPG users will get gas at more reasonable prices.  For that to happen, refillables need to be trumpeted far and wide. It amazes me just how many people I speak to on site have never heard of a refillable and even less a Safefill and when I show them they look at me like I’ve got 3 heads - and this is 10 yrs down the road! Incredible!  It really is up to us.  We can lower the price the vast majority pay for their gas but it will take determination to make the rental cylinder outmoded. 

[Guest]

I think more and more LPG stations will ban the customer from filling portable tanks.  The overfill protection device seems to be a bit unreliable.  Why would filling stations take the risk when the vast majority of their sales will be to vehicles with equipment installed by professionals to a proper code?  There are Safefill users who continue to use their bottles after the OFP device has failed.

[Mr Plodd]

Plus of course many filling stations are now doing away with LPG dispensers because less and less road vehicles are using LPG, and the leisure market for LPG filling is very minimal and not really viable for them. 

 

For my part I have invested in a cheap induction hob which uses the EHU that is invariably included in the pitch cost anyway! Different story of course if you don’t use EHU, and in that scenario refillable gas systems are king. 

 

Andy

[shipbroker]

2 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

Plus of course many filling stations are now doing away with LPG dispensers because less and less road vehicles are using LPG

 

We have 2018 built filling station with two dispensing pumps ' the utility vehicles and the taxis' use them a lot. Our older garage has just had another one fitted as part of a makeover, perhaps this is regional?

geoff

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

Plus of course many filling stations are now doing away with LPG dispensers because less and less road vehicles are using LPG, and the leisure market for LPG filling is very minimal and not really viable for them. 

 

For my part I have invested in a cheap induction hob which uses the EHU that is invariably included in the pitch cost anyway! Different story of course if you don’t use EHU, and in that scenario refillable gas systems are king. 

 

Andy

Is that a portable hob?  How many 'rings'?  I have converted my USA-born wife to induction - the cooking not the thought process!  We have a 32A supply, four-'burner' induction hob in the house. But I also have a portable unit that has one 'ring' and plugs into a 13A socket.  It was an old pro, bought on eBay.  I think it can boil a pint of water in seven seconds!

[Mr Plodd]

1 hour ago, kelper said:

Is that a portable hob?  How many 'rings'?  I have converted my USA-born wife to induction - the cooking not the thought process!  We have a 32A supply, four-'burner' induction hob in the house. But I also have a portable unit that has one 'ring' and plugs into a 13A socket.  It was an old pro, bought on eBay.  I think it can boil a pint of water in seven seconds!

 

Single ring unit bought from B&Q, it was in their sale bin for under twenty quid. We use it all the time whilst in the caravan. It comes into the house during the summer. We have roof mounted solar panels so in practice we can cook for free! 

 

I am simply  amazed at how fast it heats things up. It must be vastly more efficient than a radiant hob and the way to go if no gas is available in your house. 

 

Andy

[Johnny57]

1 hour ago, shipbroker said:

 

We have 2018 built filling station with two dispensing pumps ' the utility vehicles and the taxis' use them a lot. Our older garage has just had another one fitted as part of a makeover, perhaps this is regional?

geoff

Geoff do you allow refillables  such as Safefill to be filled at your pumps?

[Ern]

17 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

Single ring unit bought from B&Q, it was in their sale bin for under twenty quid. We use it all the time whilst in the caravan. It comes into the house during the summer. We have roof mounted solar panels so in practice we can cook for free! 

How do you get your solar panels to power the induction hob? 

[shipbroker]

52 minutes ago, Johnny57 said:

Geoff do you allow refillables  such as Safefill to be filled at your pumps?

 

Honestly never seen anyone, certainly the Co-op garages never would don't know about the new one, Murco I think...will ask next time I visit.

geoff

[Mr Plodd]

45 minutes ago, Ern said:

How do you get your solar panels to power the induction hob? 

 

The solar panels I referred to are mounted on the house roof. There are 15 of them! 

 

 So (via an inverter) they produce 230v that either gets used by me, or exported to the national grid.

 

Andy

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

I am simply  amazed at how fast it heats things up. It must be vastly more efficient than a radiant hob and the way to go if no gas is available in your house. 

 

Andy

Induction hobs are the way to go even if gas IS available. We have a 4 ring Bosch Induction hob, superb, easy to clean, very fast and efficient.

[shipbroker]

We don't have gas and our induction hob is ideal.

 

Geoff

[fred]

On 17/07/2019 at 16:22, kelper said:

Even the US is totally metric in engineering and manufacturing.  I know the public uses pounds and gallons  for weight and volume.

 

My company must have missed this memo.  The US sites,  still produce design drawings using imperial measurements and quote weights in Ilbs although often the metric weight is present in brackets but it is the imperial units that are definitive.