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joanie

electricity usage on site

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23 minutes ago, Easy T said:

Depends on vehicle usage and annual mileage. 

Not really, electric is cheaper on a like for like basis 'v' petrol or diesel. Take for example Tesla Model X, it out performs any 4 x 4 I can think of and in the USA the one we had showed around 350 miles full range from it's 100 Kw battery. So even assuming peak rate electricity at 17p per KwH thats £17.00. Take a diesel car that does 50mpg to give diesel a fighting chance of getting somewhere near - 7 gallons to do the 350 miles, again being generous at £1.10 per litre that would be £5 per gallon which would be £35 in fuel to do the same journey and thats using an economic car. If you used a touareg or a disc it would be double at least and they still wouldn't perform like the Tesla does.

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11 minutes ago, Cabbage Patch said:

 

Could you give some examples?  

 

I'd be interested to see your case for a pure EV costing more per mile to run than an ICE.

We have a 19 year old Yaris that does under 1,500 miles a year as a local run around. Also need a tow car for a 1,500kg MPTLm for around 6,500 miles a year.

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Just now, AJGalaxy2012 said:

Not really, electric is cheaper on a like for like basis 'v' petrol or diesel. Take for example Tesla Model X, it out performs any 4 x 4 I can think of and in the USA the one we had showed around 350 miles full range from it's 100 Kw battery. So even assuming peak rate electricity at 17p per KwH thats £17.00. Take a diesel car that does 50mpg to give diesel a fighting chance of getting somewhere near - 7 gallons to do the 350 miles, again being generous at £1.10 per litre that would be £5 per gallon which would be £35 in fuel to do the same journey and thats using an economic car. If you used a touareg or a disc it would be double at least and they still wouldn't perform like the Tesla does.

 

Funny that only one side of the argument can back up their claims.

 

I imagine this is what it feels like on the flat earth forum!

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3 minutes ago, Cabbage Patch said:

 

Funny that only one side of the argument can back up their claims.

 

I imagine this is what it feels like on the flat earth forum!

OK I want a tow car to tow a 1,500kg MPTLM van with a range of 200 miles. What EV do I choose. Presently for around £30k I can get a tow car and with 50/50 towing on diesel get around 35mpg. You do the maths.

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7 minutes ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

Not really, electric is cheaper on a like for like basis 'v' petrol or diesel. Take for example Tesla Model X, it out performs any 4 x 4 I can think of and in the USA the one we had showed around 350 miles full range from it's 100 Kw battery. So even assuming peak rate electricity at 17p per KwH thats £17.00. Take a diesel car that does 50mpg to give diesel a fighting chance of getting somewhere near - 7 gallons to do the 350 miles, again being generous at £1.10 per litre that would be £5 per gallon which would be £35 in fuel to do the same journey and thats using an economic car. If you used a touareg or a disc it would be double at least and they still wouldn't perform like the Tesla does.

Yes, but for that £18 saving over 350 miles to cover the higher initial outlay, it needs to be done many times per year. A low mileage car simply will not recover the cost.

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Posted (edited)

Have I missed where the EV side has put up the cost per mile of ownership, where all the cost , purchase, depreciation and fuelling was included; or are we just looking at fuel cost per mile?

 

As I have said I support the EV concept but I have not seen any cost to own values for a vehicle, least of all one to suit us.

Ideally, say matching my Disco pulling my 1900 kg van some 3000 towed miles a year and 2500 solo.

And to draw parallels, a towing range of about 300 miles per fill .

 

Edited by JTQ

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4 minutes ago, Cabbage Patch said:

 

So no figures to back up your opinion?

 

Doesn't Google work for you?

 

Renault Zoe's lowest battery lease is £49/month at 5,000 miles/year so 11.76p/mile, add on recharge costs of  6.1 p/mile , so 17.86 p/mile https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/how-much-ev-charging-and-running-cost/

 

Suzuki Swift > 8.7 p/mile

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Black Grouse said:

 

Doesn't Google work for you?

 

Renault Zoe's lowest battery lease is £49/month at 5,000 miles/year so 11.76p/mile, add on recharge costs of  6.1 p/mile , so 17.86 p/mile https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/how-much-ev-charging-and-running-cost/

 

Suzuki Swift > 8.7 p/mile

 

 

 

Yep, Google’s working for me too.

 

https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/economical-cars/electric-cars/650/cost-of-running-an-electric-car

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Cabbage Patch said:

 

The high initial cost of EVs is a big deterrent - add to that the restrictions on range and charge time and it's easy to see why sales are only 0.7%.

 

If we still had two cars in the household, as we used to, then an EV for the 2nd car might be justifyable as a used purchase but as a single car household as we are, an EV just isn't practical at present - that will change in the future but the towing duty presents a major challenge to get the range/recharge balance acceptable.

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I agree that EV has a future in one form or another. Personally I don’t think pure EV is the future and some form of ICE will be needed to either provide distance or power / torque.

 

i have been driving a self charging hybrid for the last 6 months and must admit to liking it. However, from a cost point of view if I were doing sub 10k miles a year the numbers for purchase, depreciation etc etc simply do not make sense, as I’m doing over 25k miles a year the numbers work better. At the last service we got the hybrid system interrogated and it showed a total of 56% of the 10k miles in electric.

when we come to change our Volvo I would seriously look at a self charge tug that imho is the best of both worlds giving the current alternatives. So answering the original OP’s point there is no drain on camp site electric consumption.

 

in my day job we sell Diesel engines into the marine market and dare I say we are at the forefront of our sector in our given niche market. Right at this moment we are just about to launch a parallel hybrid which is estimated to run for 20% of its life at low speeds. When it needs power / torque it will run on diesel. Why, the amount of batteries needed and weight. We have had loads of discussions with a variety of battery manufacturers  and not one of them can give us an estimate of when something better with a deep cycle will be ready, all they can tell me is it will probably be double the price of today’s style of battery.

we are also doing a similar vessel installation using Diesel SCR technology (known as ad blue in automotive speak) and from our initial tests this should prove environmentally better than hybrid.

 

now we get to the rub with all this technology. To get to the same power of a current tier 5 or 6 engine you need to be prepared to add between 30 - 50% to your cost, to add at least 30% weight. 

 

I think what im trying to say is be careful what you wish for.. it ain’t gonna be cheap or light.

 

for my pennies worth hydrogen, nitrogen, ammonia or even water (yep good old h2o) will be the next development but they will all be based on a ICE.

again back to the OP’s point none of this will involve extra expensive on site electriggery.

 

thanks

martin

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5 hours ago, Cabbage Patch said:

 

That does not make a compelling argument for widespread EV use, it is a very limited argument for certain types of use and is not a generally applicable argument. 

 

We're a very long way off being able to make a 'purely' economic argument for EV's in the secondhand sector. EV's are the preserve of drivers who can afford to spend a few £'s to experiment with the new technology. 

 

My wife's mission profile for her car is 100% suitable for an EV, but there is no way I can make an economic argument for it. Go back to BG's figures for battery lease plus the cost of charging for a Zoe, it just doesn't add up. The battery lease alone costs more than she spends on petrol per month. I genuinely look forward to the day when the numbers stack and I'll happily make the change, but for now, it is a no brainer to stick with petrol.  

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6 hours ago, jetA1 said:

 

That does not make a compelling argument for widespread EV use, it is a very limited argument for certain types of use and is not a generally applicable argument. 

 

We're a very long way off being able to make a 'purely' economic argument for EV's in the secondhand sector. EV's are the preserve of drivers who can afford to spend a few £'s to experiment with the new technology. 

 

My wife's mission profile for her car is 100% suitable for an EV, but there is no way I can make an economic argument for it. Go back to BG's figures for battery lease plus the cost of charging for a Zoe, it just doesn't add up. The battery lease alone costs more than she spends on petrol per month. I genuinely look forward to the day when the numbers stack and I'll happily make the change, but for now, it is a no brainer to stick with petrol.  

 

Your selective use of the Renault Zoe in your argument is not applicable either. As far as I know this is the only car where batteries are leased.  Choose a low annual mileage (5000 miles), amortise the cost across this low mileage, forget to add servicing costs for the petrol engined vehicle and the illustration is meaningless.

 

As my car is provided by my company my only concern is BIK.  The costs for the E350e are lots less than the Jaguar XF diesel I ran before.  I chose to run a PHEV solely on economic grounds.  

 

As for for anyone else’s situation, that’s for them to judge.  Not everyone bases their choices on money alone.  They may have other reasons such the environment, ease of use or just wanting to be an early adopter. 

 

Whether the nay sayers like it or not though, in the future the government will legislate so that we will all be driving EVs. 

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6 hours ago, jetA1 said:

My wife's mission profile for her car is 100% suitable for an EV, but there is no way I can make an economic argument for it.

Same with our second car. We run a 19 year old Yaris that OH bought 16 years ago. We are home for 8 months of the year and the car does under 200 miles in each of those months. A replacement would be a similar 1,000 cc car at 3 years old with 20K to 30K on it. The premium and faff for electric does not stack up. For some it may.  

10 minutes ago, Cabbage Patch said:

Whether the nay sayers like it or not though, in the future the government will legislate so that we will all be driving EVs. 

That is likely to be way past my driving days judging by past progress. A lot more infrastructure is needed

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15 minutes ago, Easy T said:

Same with our second car. We run a 19 year old Yaris that OH bought 16 years ago. We are home for 8 months of the year and the car does under 200 miles in each of those months. A replacement would be a similar 1,000 cc car at 3 years old with 20K to 30K on it. The premium and faff for electric does not stack up. For some it may.  

That is likely to be way past my driving days judging by past progress. A lot more infrastructure is needed

This is one of the reasons for low adoption of EVs and hybrids, that the economic and practicality issues only work out if the use of the vehicle very closely matches the vehicles optimum operating conditions. Mileage has to be high enough for the fuel cost saving to outweigh the higher initial cost, but not so high as to take it outside its operational range (or in the case of hybrids, too far outside the economic electric range. The technology is getting better but the higher initial cost is not coming down.

IC engines are just so darned versatile! 

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13 minutes ago, Stevan said:

The technology is getting better but the higher initial cost is not coming down

 

Are you sure about that?

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12 hours ago, Black Grouse said:

 

Doesn't Google work for you?

 

Renault Zoe's lowest battery lease is £49/month at 5,000 miles/year so 11.76p/mile, add on recharge costs of  6.1 p/mile , so 17.86 p/mile https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/how-much-ev-charging-and-running-cost/

 

Suzuki Swift > 8.7 p/mile

 

 

 

 

 

How much longer will it be cheaper ?  Chargemaster largest outlet company is owned by BP so if the company has effected profit margins as the electric market grows in time the cost will be balanced .

 

 

Dave

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Cabbage Patch said:

 

Your selective use of the Renault Zoe in your argument is not applicable either. As far as I know this is the only car where batteries are leased.  Choose a low annual mileage (5000 miles), amortise the cost across this low mileage, forget to add servicing costs for the petrol engined vehicle and the illustration is meaningless.

 

 

 

My selective use of the Zoe is entirely appropriate because it is the only EV that is remotely close to being an affordable option that we would consider and I can assure you that amortising 'all' the costs is an exercise that I have worked through and it simply doesn't work. I'm talking about a sub £7k secondhand car,   a choice that will be made by many. It will be some years before the EV market yields any sort of practical choice.

 

Yes my argument is entirely around the finances, because for a lot of people that is either the sole or most significant driver. in making a purchase decision.  

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14 minutes ago, Stevan said:

IC engines are just so darned versatile! 

 

Plus of course it only takes a couple of minutes to put several hundred miles worth of fuel into the tank, which, sadly, is probably where EV’s fall down badly. They CAN be “re-fuelled” en route but it takes a long time AND during that “long time” no-one else can use the electric “fuel pump” can they? (Unlike filling an IC engine vehicle which only takes a few minutes) 

 

So,  if EV’s do become the norm a lot of the congestion will shift from the roads onto the recharging station forecourts, who will invest in those forecourts? They will require a very substantial supply system from the National Grid and, having worked on highways I know what an astronomical charge the energy suppliers make just to run a cable 5m to supply a low wattage road sign! I dread to think how much it would cost to run a high capacity three phase  line into a recharging station IF there is a near enough supply to tap into.

 

Yes the costs could be subsidised by the Government, but where exactly does the Government get “its” money from? That will be our pockets then. Just look at how much they get from the current fuel duty, if that dries up where will the replacement tax income come from??? Standby for hefty tax increases on electricity for “environmental issues” Add that onto the already much higher costs of an EV and the figures become less and less appealing.

 

Andy

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Imagine if each petrol station was able to sit on top of it's own oil field and refinery and top up it's own tanks.

 

That's possible with electricity

 

 

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4 minutes ago, svimes said:

Imagine if each petrol station was able to sit on top of it's own oil field and refinery and top up it's own tanks.

 

That's possible with electricity

 

 

How? A charging bay at the foot of every wind turbine?

25 minutes ago, svimes said:

 

Are you sure about that?

Yes, if you keep up with "the technology getting better" the costs remain about the same. Sure if you settle for the older technology with all its inadequacies the cost steadily drops, as with any old technology.

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9 minutes ago, Stevan said:

How? A charging bay at the foot of every wind turbine?

 

In simple terms, yes. Or solar array 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Stevan said:

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Stevan said:

Yes, if you keep up with "the technology getting better" the costs remain about the same. 

 

Ah, goalposts shift, again.

So the gap in purchase cost between EV and IC isn't going down?

Edited by svimes

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19 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

Not really, electric is cheaper on a like for like basis 'v' petrol or diesel. Take for example Tesla Model X, it out performs any 4 x 4 I can think of and in the USA the one we had showed around 350 miles full range from it's 100 Kw battery. So even assuming peak rate electricity at 17p per KwH thats £17.00. Take a diesel car that does 50mpg to give diesel a fighting chance of getting somewhere near - 7 gallons to do the 350 miles, again being generous at £1.10 per litre that would be £5 per gallon which would be £35 in fuel to do the same journey and thats using an economic car. If you used a touareg or a disc it would be double at least and they still wouldn't perform like the Tesla does.

Just out of interest "I did a few sums" purely on fuel consumption, and ignoring other overheads.

 

Using your figures:-

EV - £17 for 350 miles = 4.9p/mile

Diesel - £35 for 350 miles = 10p/mile

 

Using my figures:-

3.2 litre Volvo Petrol - £40 for 230 miles = 17p/mile

3.2 litre Volvo LPG - £19 for 230 miles = 8p/mile

 

By comparison:-

1.8 litre MG Petrol - averages 11p/mile

 

I'll be honest; I think EVs do have a future but only if the range between charges is improved, recharge points are everywhere and the charge time can be reduced, initial cost is comparable to present vehicles, and battery replacement costs are reduced. If this can be achieved then EVs have a chance of being generally accepted and can then effectively move the pollution out of our cities and to the power stations, unless of course "green energy" generation takes off in a big way. 

 

I thought at one point the hydrogen cell was a viable alternative but it will need significant financial investment, and acceptance by the public before that can happen. 

 

Just my thoughts . . .

Gordon.

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19 minutes ago, svimes said:

Imagine if each petrol station was able to sit on top of it's own oil field and refinery and top up it's own tanks.

 

That's possible with electricity

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, svimes said:

In simple terms, yes. Or solar array 

Kindly explain how, breaking off a journey to find the nearest wind turbine makes sensible use of time.

Or, how big a solar array would be needed to provide a steady succession  of fast charges at a service area charging point, even in daytime.

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The large investment for a battery powered car compared to a diesel car might put some off . If you’re on zero hours you have no guarantee of income so a low investment but higher running costs would appeal more, as you would only buy diesel if going to work. Things will change but may be not at the speed they are on about unless wages go up or something.

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