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Caravan Club - Rules etc

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49 minutes ago, joanie said:

http://www.westyorksfire.gov.uk/uploads/assets/sitepoint/pan/fireProtection-FS/FS-PAN006-CaravanSites.pdf

 

I was actually looking for the cc rules but came across this.  TBH when seeing how some people use BBQ's  too close to the caravan and awning, I would want more than 6m away.

That document refers mainly to static caravans and not touring caravans and the rules for touring caravans appear to be different?  Notice the reference to vehicles being a minimum of 3 metres from the next unit etc. 

Also states that the Standards are not statutory, but represent what should normally to be expected as a matter of good practice. A local authority, in deciding what conditions to attach to a site licence, is required by the Act to have regard to the specified Standard.  Good find though.

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6 minutes ago, DeeTee said:

T

To refuse to do so would seems to be in breach of site rules which could lead to the Warden asking  Stockcroft to leave the site.

 

My sympathies are with Solihull's finest Warden team at Chapel Lane Club site.:rolleyes:

Stockcroft didn't refuse 

3 minutes ago, Durbanite said:

That document refers mainly to static caravans and not touring caravans and the rules for touring caravans appear to be different?  Notice the reference to vehicles being a minimum of 3 metres from the next unit etc. 

Also states that the Standards are not statutory, but represent what should normally to be expected as a matter of good practice. A local authority, in deciding what conditions to attach to a site licence, is required by the Act to have regard to the specified Standard.  Good find though.

This leaflet is for prospective/current Caravan Site owners and provides guidance on the standards that are considered appropriate in respect to fire safety on Residential, Holiday and Touring Caravan Sites.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, joanie said:

Stockcroft didn't refuse 

This leaflet is for prospective/current Caravan Site owners and provides guidance on the standards that are considered appropriate in respect to fire safety on Residential, Holiday and Touring Caravan Sites.

Sincere apologies.  Joanie

I had missed this sentence: "Clearly, I didn't want to break such a rule and as I couldn't see it I immediately agreed to move the car this evening." in the lengthy OP. That sentence only appeared after a rather lengthy piece about moving to a different pitch which would have involved taking down and re-erecting the awning.

 

It seems to me that since the last time I stayed at a cc site, Moreton in Marsh at Christmas 2017, the Club website pages containing the site map of a club site which also contains pitching instructions have changed from a printable black and white drawing to a colour kiddies map which shows the heritage pitching instructions. These instructions are at odds with the actualite.

The OP indicated that he was actually shown two different maps possibly by different wardens.:rolleyes:

 

Edited by DeeTee
Added sentence

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Though the separation guidance figures are not "statutory"  for touring caravans, I doubt the club could get insurance if they did not apply them.

IMO they could easily take a view that a court would see such guidance, particularly relevant  in a case of a fatality from fire spread.

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No it is not the neighbours pitch but it is that little bit of green in front of the awning that sometimes makes caravaning a bit more enjoyable.

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Posted (edited)

I was talking to a warden about 10 years ago about the exent of a 'pitch' - he pointed to my gravelled area and said "that's yours", then he pointed to my neighbour's gravel and said "that's his", then he pointed to the grass in between us and said "and that's mine".  And that's how I've thought of it since. I wouldn't dream of parking on the grass in between unless told to by the warden.

 

Also, here's the C&CC's official definition of the 6-metre rule -

 

1913327521_6metrerule.thumb.jpg.045ff159cc72acbdbfd72ddb92d79e56.jpg

 

If the CMC employ the same definition, then there's no way they can be using it against the OP, as there is clearly a 3-metre gap between his car and the adjacent awning.

 

John

 

 

Edited by Johnaldo
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Clearly the 6m clearance was not breached and no idea why that was mentioned or the full context. The more important issue is 'don't park on the grass on a hardstand unless asked to do so

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I don't carry a tape measure.

IMG_0402.JPG

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All interesting stuff. Having owned a German van for years we got sick and tired of being told all sorts of made up rules and procedures from wardens  because the" door was on the wrong side".  We decided always to get things absolutely clear with the wardens on booking in and therefore could set about enjoying our holiday.  There have been some challenging discussions!

I still remain intrigued as to the rules and regs regarding standalone "pup" tents that can appear on the grass between pitches. Is there a magic tape measure involved here?

Cheers

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1 hour ago, JTQ said:

Though the separation guidance figures are not "statutory"  for touring caravans, I doubt the club could get insurance if they did not apply them.

 

Plenty of other sites seem to manage, I assume they do this via risk assessment to the local conditions rather than a blanket rule from one tip of the country to the other which, as the OP has discovered, isn’t always applied.

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Just now, FrankBullet said:

 

Plenty of other sites seem to manage, I assume they do this via risk assessment to the local conditions rather than a blanket rule from one tip of the country to the other which, as the OP has discovered, isn’t always applied.

The trouble is that there is no statutory standard and the rules for any given site can be set by any one of a number of authorities:-

Organising club.

Local Fire Service.

Local Council.

Insurance company.

Manager/owner's whim.

Common courtesy dictates though, that it should be communicated clearly.

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17 hours ago, Johnaldo said:

 

Tradewinds, sorry to contradict , but this is my outfit at Start Bay a couple of years ago ...

 

2141199076_StartBay.thumb.JPG.3f202a28a848ae33e42c0c47df79c14e.JPG

 

John

 

(PS, before anyone comments - the white peg had been moved by the previous occupant of that pitch, and the warden had moved it back to the tell-tale marker disk, ready for the next occupant).

 

 

You will note I said "The pitches in Question" that is, for example the pitches opposite where you are pitched. in fact the narrow pitches are almost down the entire far away side of the site.

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1 hour ago, Johnaldo said:

I was talking to a warden about 10 years ago about the exent of a 'pitch' - he pointed to my gravelled area and said "that's yours", then he pointed to my neighbour's gravel and said "that's his", then he pointed to the grass in between us and said "and that's mine".  And that's how I've thought of it since. I wouldn't dream of parking on the grass in between unless told to by the warden.

 

Also, here's the C&CC's official definition of the 6-metre rule -

 

1913327521_6metrerule.thumb.jpg.045ff159cc72acbdbfd72ddb92d79e56.jpg

 

If the CMC employ the same definition, then there's no way they can be using it against the OP, as there is clearly a 3-metre gap between his car and the adjacent awning.

 

John

 

 

I always thought that as per the regulations the 6m was between the wall of the caravans and between awning and wall of next caravan?

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3 hours ago, BurstnerBloke said:

 

I still remain intrigued as to the rules and regs regarding standalone "pup" tents that can appear on the grass between pitches. Is there a magic tape measure involved here?

Cheers

 On a CMC site any pup tent is supposed to be on the pitch as is any clothes drier, bird feeder etc.  and the towing vehicle.  That means on the gravel of a separate hard standing.  

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9 hours ago, macSpot said:

I would love to see what would happen if the two clubs had no site rules at all. Pitch where you want, drive as fast as you like, let your dog roam free, let you children run loose. It would be superb. :rolleyes:

Seems to work ok in France and the Netherlands from my limited experience.

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Rules, and their exceptions, are a double-edged sword for the cc - their uniformity gives many members the predictability they like but are either applied rigidly by jobsworth or with exceptions which aren't universally liked.

 

Personally, we don't use an awning so I want to park the car on the door side of the caravan for ease of access in poor weather - and want the freedom to pitch the caravan nose-in, nose-out or sideways - we can't on a cc club site so we don't use them, it's no real loss to us.

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54 minutes ago, Black Grouse said:

Personally, we don't use an awning so I want to park the car on the door side of the caravan for ease of access in poor weather - and want the freedom to pitch the caravan nose-in, nose-out or sideways - we can't on a cc club site so we don't use them, it's no real loss to us.

 

We don’t use CMC sites very often, but when we have I have noticed a number of vans doing just as you said.  Once at Bourton on the Water  I asked if I could go in nose first.  As I guess others had made one off agreements.  I was told no problem by a common sense warden, as my request did not materially affect others or fire rules.  But as others have said, it may be up to the whim of the warden.

 

John

 

 

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Don't have an issues with rules if they are clear and uniformly applied.

My issue with the CMC and hard standing pitches is the seeming random positioning of the caravan back corner target peg.

To my mind it should be placed one third of the pitch width from the LH Side (assuming sufficient pitch width for car-van-awning).

On most sites, when my van has the OS corner on the peg, my tug ends up with two wheels on the grass in order to avoid running over my Aquaroll & Wastemaster. There is then about 6 feet of hardstanding between the front of my awning and the grass!

 

Cheers

Keith

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3 hours ago, Black Grouse said:

Personally, we don't use an awning so I want to park the car on the door side of the caravan for ease of access in poor weather

I always understood that the Car-Caravan-Awning set-up only applies when you erect an awning  -  so I'm pretty sure what you'd like to do is okay, BG - I always park on the nearside if we don't have an awning up, and have yet to be told off.

 

2 hours ago, rslsys said:

My issue with the CMC and hard standing pitches is the seeming random positioning of the caravan back corner target peg. 

Keith, I don't think the peg positions are at all random, and I think convenience is a secondary consideration. I saw surveyors on a site one time measuring out the exact positions for the pegs, and, as mentioned above, this is all in the interests of fire safety measures.

 

John

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9 hours ago, JCloughie said:

 

We don’t use CMC sites very often, but when we have I have noticed a number of vans doing just as you said.  Once at Bourton on the Water  I asked if I could go in nose first.  As I guess others had made one off agreements.  I was told no problem by a common sense warden, as my request did not materially affect others or fire rules.  But as others have said, it may be up to the whim of the warden.

 

John

 

 

The Caravan Club have confirmed a good while ago that you can park nose in or out to suit yourself. The pitching diagram says either rear off side to peg or front nearside. Your choice. 

 

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On 01/06/2019 at 22:36, Grandpa Steve said:

The  rule is rear offside to the peg,

That's not entirely true, as my windows are at the back of my caravan and the door is on the right hand side I always pitch 'nose first' on CMC sites, we've been on many and non have had a problem with this.

Is this '6m Rule' a UK thing? I've been on sites in France and Spain where I could open a side window and touch the neighbours caravan (they had their door facing one way, we had ours facing the other)

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7 minutes ago, Borussia 1900 said:

That's not entirely true,

Indeed not true at all. At liberty to park nose in or out.

On an awning pitch car any side

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12 minutes ago, Borussia 1900 said:

That's not entirely true, as my windows are at the back of my caravan and the door is on the right hand side I always pitch 'nose first' on CMC sites, we've been on many and non have had a problem with this.

Is this '6m Rule' a UK thing? I've been on sites in France and Spain where I could open a side window and touch the neighbours caravan (they had their door facing one way, we had ours facing the other)

 

Like you I have seen what is to us very close pitching on French, and German sites in my case.

The 6 metre separation I feel has its origins in the interspacing of statics required as a by law in the granting of permission for these sites by various UK Local Authorities. Now I have noted being quite widely adopted by all LA I have had cause to look into their rules.

 

It has spun off as a safe guidance value for touring caravans, adopted rigidly by the Camping & Caravan Club, and seemingly till more recent years by the then cc, but with a twist it being "flank" to "flank" ignoring any awning that might be fitted.

 

That ignoring the awning stance changed now a few years back, and the CMC now follows the convention that the awning is habitable and must be allowed for. This has caused some real issues as the earlier pitching hardstandings were never  set out with awnings having to be accounted for in mind, resulting in losing some awning pitches and a great deal tighter control of how we pitch on marginal pitches.

 

IMO, it is the safety ramifications together with the litigation that could follow an accident that has brought this sensitivity about; again IMO a negligence charge for ignoring best practice fire separation would be an immensely difficult case to defend, should there be a fatality or serious injury related to fire spread.

 

Yes, there will be operators who chance it and don't follow best practice, hopefully they never have an accident and need to argue their ignoring it.

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Just spent a long weekend on a Dutch site (Landgoed Hoeve Batenburg) very nice too, huge pitches, no pegs to line up to but you weren't allowed to leave your car on your pitch, they had a separate car park 30m away. Quite a lot of sites over here have 'car free' pitches, perhaps something the CMC should consider.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Borussia 1900 said:

Is this '6m Rule' a UK thing? I've been on sites in France and Spain where I could open a side window and touch the neighbours caravan

 

I think it is Borussia ... but it's not a legal requirement (it's a bit like the 85% 'rule' in that respect).  Many private sites pretend they've never heard of it and just cram in as many as possible (as I found out one time when I returned to site after a day out to find a tent under my sun awning and using 2 of my pegs for their guy ropes!!)

 

I certainly know which situation I prefer, and have never used a large private site since.

 

John

 

Edited by Johnaldo

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