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Ian of Chorley

Hill start disaster from stationary

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4 hours ago, Borussia 1900 said:

If memory serves me well, a  CRARRV  (that's a REME version of a Challenger Tank with a winch and crane on it) weighs about 62 tonnes, I have in the past towed a broken down CRARRV with a CRARRV so that's 124 tonne cross country at around 30 mph, not sure what the MTPLM or User Payload was but I'm glad I wasn't paying for the Diesel :o

 

You should have kept the towed weight to under 100t, just to obey the 85% ‘rule’ 👍

  • Haha 2

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On 21/05/2019 at 23:22, Stevan said:

Many of us have, for economic reasons to tow with multi purpose vehicles, that have to combine commuter car, family cruiser and towcar etc.

I have, in the past, towed caravans successfully, and without burning clutches, with 1.3 litre and 1.6 litre petrol engines and more recently with 2 litre and 2.2 litre Diesels, although my favourite was a 2 litre 5 cylinder petrol engine running on LPG!

One mistake that many people make with the clutch is to try and be too smooth with hill starts allowing it to slip in an attempt to creep forwards rather than being decisive in its use.

If we are going 'who towed with the smallest engine'  . My first tow car was an 803cc Morris Minor towing  10'6" 4 berth Fairholme .. towed with no problems, including around Snowdonia .

 

 

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14 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

and

 

10 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

transmission

 

I have been doing some research and I am still baffled- the 2L 180hp engine in my Mondeo is the same as in the Ford Edge which is a much heavier car - the Mondeo can tow 2 ton the same as the edge. How does this work?!

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My guess is you’ve simply been unlucky - a bit of towing clutch abuse on the back of a previous owner that rode the clutch; I’ve never rode the clutch and have no idea why anyone would but there is every chance the previous owner did.

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8 hours ago, Ian of Chorley said:

 

 

I have been doing some research and I am still baffled- the 2L 180hp engine in my Mondeo is the same as in the Ford Edge which is a much heavier car - the Mondeo can tow 2 ton the same as the edge. How does this work?!

 

My 140 Mondeo has a 2 tonne limit, its the technical mass for hill starts or something like that, I prefer to take the kerb weight of the car into my calculations for safe towing.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Ian of Chorley said:

 

 

I have been doing some research and I am still baffled- the 2L 180hp engine in my Mondeo is the same as in the Ford Edge which is a much heavier car - the Mondeo can tow 2 ton the same as the edge. How does this work?!

The Edge has a lower first gear ratio which may account to the heavier car having the same towing limit.

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A low first gear ratio does not make for racing starts but is definitely handy when towing IMO

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On 21/05/2019 at 17:45, DACS said:

I prefer an automatic transmission

I always have preferred auto transmission - and not just for towing.

We have four vehicles here at home and three of them are autos - the fourth being the MGTF which frankly is a pain in slow queuing traffic.

MGTF thumbnail 2.jpg Hurricane 31D thumbnail.jpg Volvo V70 thumbnail.jpg AIXAM thumbnail.jpg

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On 21/05/2019 at 16:49, Ian of Chorley said:

Hi.

Have a Ford Mondeo 2015 2L diesel 180 manual which tows my 575 Coachman caravan 2016 model. Everything fine until I fried my clutch last week as I ended up making a series of hill starts from stationary following roadworks and T junction. Costing me over £1k to repair which I don’t want to pay again! Moving awning into car to help but the hillstart assist, electronic brake, clutch and weight of caravan all seemed to be working against each other. Quite frightening experience and I am a reasonably experienced tower! Am pleased with the Mondeo but having read forum wish I had chosen automatic. Any advice out there? Would rather not have to change the car if possible as only had it six months.

 

All the weight figures quoted by vehicle manufacturers are based on the vehicle being capable of pulling away on a 12% slope so if you stop and start on a slope greater than that .it will fail if near MTW . Even in the peak District or Cotwolds you will find hills over 12% .

 

Stop and let the traffic move forwards before pulling away to reduce the cars effort each time .

 

 

Dave

 

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41 minutes ago, CommanderDave said:

All the weight figures quoted by vehicle manufacturers are based on the vehicle being capable of pulling away on a 12% slope so if you stop and start on a slope greater than that .it will fail if near MTW . Even in the peak District or Cotwolds you will find hills over 12% .

Indeed I regularly encounter roads of 16% and, if reviewing roads on a map you are generally only able to determine roads which are greater than 1:7 (14%) or was the case when last I looked. I have often wondered why 12% was chosen rather than 14% when giving a cars restart capability. 

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I'm pretty sure that DSG automatic gearboxes do NOT have a torque converter.  They have two, multiplate, wet clutches.  I can't think of any modern, European saloon car that has a torque converter; I hope someone will prove me wrong.  Most manufacturers have to meet certain minimum mpg across their fleet and so they moved away from torque converters as these all have a consumption penalty.  When I was shopping around for a small auto two years ago I asked the salesmen if the car they offered had a torque converter - not one of them knew what I meant!  

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28 minutes ago, kelper said:

I'm pretty sure that DSG automatic gearboxes do NOT have a torque converter.  They have two, multiplate, wet clutches.  I can't think of any modern, European saloon car that has a torque converter; I hope someone will prove me wrong.  Most manufacturers have to meet certain minimum mpg across their fleet and so they moved away from torque converters as these all have a consumption penalty.  When I was shopping around for a small auto two years ago I asked the salesmen if the car they offered had a torque converter - not one of them knew what I meant!  

According to this:

 

https://www.whatcar.com/news/which-type-of-automatic-gearbox-should-i-buy/n17022#2

 

mine has one and quite a few others also.

 

John

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36 minutes ago, kelper said:

I'm pretty sure that DSG automatic gearboxes do NOT have a torque converter.  They have two, multiplate, wet clutches.  I can't think of any modern, European saloon car that has a torque converter; I hope someone will prove me wrong.  Most manufacturers have to meet certain minimum mpg across their fleet and so they moved away from torque converters as these all have a consumption penalty.  When I was shopping around for a small auto two years ago I asked the salesmen if the car they offered had a torque converter - not one of them knew what I meant!  

 

Most autos are torque converters. A torque converter auto are locked up almost all the time while a wet clutch DSG slipps all the time.

I love driving autos and I never thought I would buy a manual but the yeti only comes with a DSG and the drop in mpg was more than I want to pay and since we do a lot of long distance driving both solo and  towing I decided on the manual.

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Posted (edited)

Torque converter boxes are not a easy answer to burned out clutches as you can cook the box on a conventional automatic that still has clutches hence why they usually call for extra cooling if be used for towing under some road conditions .

 

http://transmissionrepairguy.com/transmission-overheating/

 

 

 

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave

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2
25 minutes ago, AndersG said:

Most autos are torque converters. A torque converter auto are locked up almost all the time while a wet clutch DSG slipps all the time.

The clutch in a DSG only slips during gear changes and when moving off.  I'm sure you'll find that most automatics sold in the UK today do not use torque converters!  There are DSG's and some with an automatic clutch and gear change coupled with a fairly conventional gearbox.  Some premium cars do use torque converters as I have found after reading JCloughie's post, but his Volvo is an estate and I was referring to saloons!

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Posted (edited)

As said some Car manufacturers use Robotic controlled conventional manual gearboxes and the clutch and gear change is just controlled by a robotic control system and it behaves just like a automatic but I have noticed they change gear just slightly slower between changes than a twin clutch .

 

 

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave

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I'm trying to find a source for my claim that most autos don't use torque converters.  I read somewhere that Mazda have a car with a torque converter but it's only used up to 5mph, after which it's locked up and a DSG takes over.   So you have the smooth take-up of the TC but the expense worries of a DSG failure

 

Apparently, all rear-wheel-drive Mercedes and BMW's have TC's.  But they will make up a fraction of all cars sold with automatics.. 

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2 hours ago, kelper said:

When I was shopping around for a small auto two years ago I asked the salesmen if the car they offered had a torque converter - not one of them knew what I meant!  

 

That just demonstrates that car sales people have virtually no understanding of the vehicles they're selling.

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The typical torque converter auto today will lock shortly after moving off then will unlock briefly while changing gears but when changing higher gears it will often not unlock but change gears with the  torque converter locked.

It's not like in the old days when it would only lock after a while when you were in top gear.

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54 minutes ago, kelper said:

I'm trying to find a source for my claim that most autos don't use torque converters.  I read somewhere that Mazda have a car with a torque converter but it's only used up to 5mph, after which it's locked up and a DSG takes over.   So you have the smooth take-up of the TC but the expense worries of a DSG failure

 

Apparently, all rear-wheel-drive Mercedes and BMW's have TC's.  But they will make up a fraction of all cars sold with automatics.. 

I have a Mazda CX 5 auto, it has a 6 speed torque converter gearbox ,it can be used in manual mode also . The Mazda 3 and CX3 also have a torque converter if autos, I believe the Mazda 2 also has a torque converter if auto although these are not very common. The auto box does not lock up at 5 mph and change to a DSG

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Here's some interesting stuff on the Mazda auto.  It does 'lock up' the torque converter but only has one multiplate clutch.  So I was wrong about the DSG.:(

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