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Treesparrow

Weights and limits question

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Posted (edited)

Hi all, newbie here to the forum.  I'm not new to towing, but this is the first car that has not been able to tow 3.5t. Wife is wanting a caravan and so I'm trying to find one with the right weight, layout and size.

 

The car is an Octavia scout and the V5 gives the following info

 

Mass in service 1559 kg

Max Permissible mass 2129 kg

Max towing wight 1800 kg

The V5 does not seem to specify a tow bar weight

 

Firstly am i correct in assuming that the max train weight is 3929 kgs?

 

Secondly what would be the heaviest MTPM for a caravan we could consider? I have been limiting my searches to 1500kg - too low too high? Advice / opinions welcome and appreciated

Ta

Rob

 

 

 

 

Edited by Treesparrow
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You’ve got your calculations right (nose weight is 80kg from memory), only caution is that a wobbly box at 95% of Mass in service is definitely on the the edge for an experienced caravan puller even for somebody with towing experience - I’d probably be tempted to get it to about 90% so roughly 1400kg MTPLM.

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Having towed in the past (before I knew better) at up to 120% I would be happy towing up to the mass in service, or up to the towing limit if it has a stabiliser and ATC, if insurance and licence permit.

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13 minutes ago, Treesparrow said:

Hi all, newbie here to the forum.  I'm not new to towing, but this is the first car that has not been able to tow 3.5t. Wife is wanting a caravan and so I'm trying to find one with the right weight, layout and size.

 

The car is an Octavia scout and the V5 gives the following info

 

Mass in service 1559 kg

Max Permissible mass 2129 kg

Max towing wight 1800 kg

The V5 does not seem to specify a tow bar weight

 

Firstly am i correct in assuming that the max train weight is 3929 kgs?

 

Secondly what would be the heaviest MTPM for a caravan we could consider? I have been limiting my searches to 1500kg - too low too high? Advice / opinions welcome and appreciated

Ta

Rob

 

 

 

 

You may be right with your calculation but its not the definitive way to do it, and for some cars it doesn't work that way. Look at the plate on your car's B post where you will see the maximum train weight (the largest number), maximum laden weight (the second largest number), and axle weights (the two smallest numbers). These are the definitive weights which Plod would check.

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You cannot rely on adding the car's Gross Vehicle Weight and Towing Limit to arrive at Gross Train Weight, sometimes the GTW is less than the sum of the other two figures. 

 

In such cases if you have a van at MTPLM then you have to reduce the max weight you can put in the car or vice versa.

 

As said the definitive and legally binding limits are those on the car's VIN plate, probably on the 'B' pillar. The Towing Limit specified by the car manufacturer is not a legally enforceable limit, the plated weights are.

 

The maximum noseweight should be somewhere in the car's handbook and any towbar fitted will also have it's maximum load written on it. When in use it is the lowest of those two limits that is relevant. 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Ern said:

You may be right with your calculation but its not the definitive way to do it, and for some cars it doesn't work that way. Look at the plate on your car's B post where you will see the maximum train weight (the largest number), maximum laden weight (the second largest number), and axle weights (the two smallest numbers). These are the definitive weights which Plod would check.

 

Thanks - just checked the B Pillar and the figures are 3929 (assume GTW) and  2129 (assume max car weight) (= 1800 kgs towing). The 2 other figures relate to axle 1 (1100 kg) and axle 2 (1080 kg) 

 

To keep SWMBO happy I'll be sticking to a MTPLM of 1300 -1350.. 

 

Now just to decide on the make  ... !

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What is the percentage towing figure at the time of towing it? - under 85%?

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14 hours ago, Treesparrow said:

 

Thanks - just checked the B Pillar and the figures are 3929 (assume GTW) and  2129 (assume max car weight) (= 1800 kgs towing). The 2 other figures relate to axle 1 (1100 kg) and axle 2 (1080 kg) 

 

To keep SWMBO happy I'll be sticking to a MTPLM of 1300 -1350.. 

 

Now just to decide on the make  ... !

That 1350Kg is the MPLM of our caravan. I fancy the Skoda Scout as a candidate to replace our Volvo at some stage. Keep us informed please.

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2067997706_image_update_60167e2af7a376bc_1350330797_9j-4aaqsk1.jpg.68789a84447dae53a82dfe165243092a.jpg

 

this exceeded the 100% towing limit :D but it was 60 years ago when I towed these things  --  and YES I do know it is an artic so the laws are different and besides it was RAF and the military are (were) not bound by silly civilian laws :rolleyes:

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17 hours ago, Treesparrow said:

Hi all, newbie here to the forum.  I'm not new to towing, but this is the first car that has not been able to tow 3.5t. Wife is wanting a caravan and so I'm trying to find one with the right weight, layout and size.

The car is an Octavia scout and the V5 gives the following info

Mass in service 1559 kg

Max Permissible mass 2129 kg

Max towing wight 1800 kg

The V5 does not seem to specify a tow bar weight

Firstly am i correct in assuming that the max train weight is 3929 kgs?

Secondly what would be the heaviest MTPM for a caravan we could consider? I have been limiting my searches to 1500kg - too low too high? Advice / opinions welcome and appreciated

Ta

Rob

Do you have a pre or post 1996 driving licence because with a B licence you would be restricted to the maximum weight of the caravan.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, TedNewman said:

2067997706_image_update_60167e2af7a376bc_1350330797_9j-4aaqsk1.jpg.68789a84447dae53a82dfe165243092a.jpg

 

this exceeded the 100% towing limit :D but it was 60 years ago when I towed these things  --  and YES I do know it is an artic so the laws are different and besides it was RAF and the military are (were) not bound by silly civilian laws :rolleyes:

 

Laws are laws. They don't normally differentiate between military and civilian vehicles and by law artics are treated the same as any other vehicle. Besides, even for civilian vehicles there are exceptions for oversize loads. I know of several who tow caravans at over 100%, too.

 

11 minutes ago, Durbanite said:

Do you have a pre or post 1996 driving licence because with a B licence you would be restricted to the maximum weight of the caravan.

 

Yes, without a Category BE licence you would be limited to a caravan with an MTPLM of 1371kg.

 

Edited by Lutz

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Lutz the UK is not Germany we do not follow the vorschrift ist vorschrift doctrine and my RAF time was well before the EU (or EEC) and we shall soon be out of the EU again - even though I voted to remain :D

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5 hours ago, R0G said:

What is the percentage towing figure at the time of towing it? - under 85%?

 

Why ???

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3 hours ago, Durbanite said:

Do you have a pre or post 1996 driving licence because with a B licence you would be restricted to the maximum weight of the caravan.

 

OP is used to towing but with tow vehicles over 3.5t - I suspect the E license isn’t an issue for them

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20 hours ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

You cannot rely on adding the car's Gross Vehicle Weight and Towing Limit to arrive at Gross Train Weight, sometimes the GTW is less than the sum of the other two figures. 

 

In such cases if you have a van at MTPLM then you have to reduce the max weight you can put in the car or vice versa.

 

As said the definitive and legally binding limits are those on the car's VIN plate, probably on the 'B' pillar. The Towing Limit specified by the car manufacturer is not a legally enforceable limit, the plated weights are.

 

The maximum noseweight should be somewhere in the car's handbook and any towbar fitted will also have it's maximum load written on it. When in use it is the lowest of those two limits that is relevant. 

 

 

You should also check the hitch head itself. Some like ALKO may have a load limit cast into the metalwork. Others like Winterhoff, you need to check the spec in the handbook. Therefore its the lowest of the 3 which should be observed.

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4 hours ago, TedNewman said:

2067997706_image_update_60167e2af7a376bc_1350330797_9j-4aaqsk1.jpg.68789a84447dae53a82dfe165243092a.jpg

 

this exceeded the 100% towing limit :D but it was 60 years ago when I towed these things  --  and YES I do know it is an artic so the laws are different and besides it was RAF and the military are (were) not bound by silly civilian laws :rolleyes:

OOH Bedford CA in the right background. I used to have one, ex Royal Navy. The handbook said it was a 4 speed column change but I could only ever find 3 :rolleyes:

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24 minutes ago, Flat_at said:

OOH Bedford CA in the right background. I used to have one, ex Royal Navy. The handbook said it was a 4 speed column change but I could only ever find 3 :rolleyes:

 

Had one as office runabout first job, yes three forward and one reverse equals four speed changes!

geoff

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7 hours ago, Ern said:

That 1350Kg is the MPLM of our caravan. I fancy the Skoda Scout as a candidate to replace our Volvo at some stage. Keep us informed please.

 

The scout tows well - Now I no longer have a shogun, I use the scout to pull my Ifor Williams LT105  - have happily towed at just under 1800-kg (ballast from the quarry) so was looking at MTPLM of around 1500kg, but SWMBO is not so experienced and so wants to keep around the 85% guideline - which is fair enough. Baily Ranger GT60 520/4 seems to fit the bill

 

Driving licences not an issue 

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1 hour ago, Flat_at said:

OOH Bedford CA in the right background. I used to have one, ex Royal Navy. The handbook said it was a 4 speed column change but I could only ever find 3 :rolleyes:

 

Yep three forward speeds - had one as a delivery vehicle when working in London after my RAF spell.

 

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6 hours ago, TedNewman said:

Lutz the UK is not Germany we do not follow the vorschrift ist vorschrift doctrine and my RAF time was well before the EU (or EEC) and we shall soon be out of the EU again - even though I voted to remain :D

 

Actually, I was referring to UK legislation which is basically no different to that of other EU countries and will probably largely remain that way even after Brexit.

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2 hours ago, Lutz said:

 

Actually, I was referring to UK legislation which is basically no different to that of other EU countries and will probably largely remain that way even after Brexit.

 

 The whole idea of leaving is so that we can legislate independently of the EU - or at least that is what we were told :Thankyou:

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54 minutes ago, TedNewman said:

 

 The whole idea of leaving is so that we can legislate independently of the EU - or at least that is what we were told :Thankyou:

That's right. So we can choose our own weight limits and sizes and do what we like, right up to selling them to any other member state which then cant accept them. 

Hang on though that sounds vaguely familiar inasmuch that's exactly what happens now.  We use EWVTA to sell products to EU27 countries but if we want to sell just to ourselves we have legislated to allow that via IVA or NSSTA

Classic example is that under EU rules max height is 4m in the UK we allow higher.

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10 hours ago, TedNewman said:

2067997706_image_update_60167e2af7a376bc_1350330797_9j-4aaqsk1.jpg.68789a84447dae53a82dfe165243092a.jpg

 

this exceeded the 100% towing limit :D but it was 60 years ago when I towed these things  --  and YES I do know it is an artic so the laws are different and besides it was RAF and the military are (were) not bound by silly civilian laws :rolleyes:

If Plod stops you and asks you 'whether you have a licence for this vehicle, sir?', you could confuse him/her by asking whether they mean a licence to drive it or fly it ...

 

Steve

 

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2 minutes ago, marchie1053 said:

a licence to drive it or fly it ...

...or a firearms licence?

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Flat_at said:

OOH Bedford CA in the right background. I used to have one, ex Royal Navy. The handbook said it was a 4 speed column change but I could only ever find 3 :rolleyes:

 

Looks like a  Utilabrake 9 seat conversion by Martin Walter of Folkestone often, but incorrectly, called Dormobiles which was a motor caravan or camper van..

I worked at Vauxhall when these were produced.  Demonstrated them all over the UK and drove many variations. Once took a milk van conversion with low ratio rear axle from the Luton factory to North Wales (pre motorways!) at 45 mph max.  The bare chassis with just a front scuttle and windscreen was a hairy beast to drive when taking it from factory to bodybuilder for assessment..

 

NB. A four-speed gearbox was optional on later models.

Edit:

Utilabrake = mix of utility and shooting brake.

Dormobile = from 'dormir' French to sleep

 

 

Edited by beejay

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