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laurastoppard

Will my car pull a large caravan

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2 hours ago, xtrailman said:

Lifesure also do not insurance for CARAVAN ratios over 100%.

 

Is that insurance for the car or for the van please and can you let us have the quote from their policy?

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Posted (edited)

 

 

2 hours ago, SamD said:

 

Is that insurance for the car or for the van please and can you let us have the quote from their policy?

 

This is from Lifesure's caravan policy.

 

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And this from Towergate, best check policies out there, surely can't be just these two?

 

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Edited by Griff
Edit. Towergate clause.
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But where do they get their kerbweight from? It's not documented anywhere.

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10 hours ago, marchie1053 said:

Would the amazing towing capacity of the HiLux be more suited to towing trailers such as yours with the generator where the open trailer has less wind resistance than the 'white box' that is a caravan? My Tiguan has a maximum towing capacity of 2000kg but Mass in Service of 1588kg; if Tig were to tow at or near its maximum, it would be pulling my general trailer with yet more gravel or sand, rather than towing a pristine 2000kg caravan that would pose more problems for the car's [safe and comfortable] towing  capacity. I tow only a folding caravan with MTPLM of 1050kg so I know I'm being very conservative!

Steve

The gen is more like a small caravan ie a big White box 16'x7x7

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46 minutes ago, Lutz said:

But where do they get their kerbweight from? It's not documented anywhere.

 

I agree on formal documentation but playing devils advocate :ph34r: and taking Lifesure as an example, they specify their interpretation : (the weight of the towing vehicle including a full tank of fuel and all standard equipment without passengers or cargo).

 

Irrespective of the word kerb weight, in the case of a claim, would it be beyond this insurer to take the vehicle, fill it with fuel, remove any cargo and passengers and weigh it?

 

 

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They will go on the Mass in Service on the V5.

 

Lovely to see another 15-page thread in the making with a circular discussion using the words ‘weight’ and ‘mass’

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Posted (edited)

My Insurance with Quote me happy just says "any trailer towed by the car" without any qualification on size or weight so it's probably best that the OP checks their own insurance documentation rather than relying on info from someone else's:rolleyes:

 

Thats not to say that they shouldn't be made aware of possible problems but their insurance will have different wording to many others and thats the one that will be effective

Edited by matelodave

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50 minutes ago, Griff said:

 

I agree on formal documentation but playing devils advocate :ph34r: and taking Lifesure as an example, they specify their interpretation : (the weight of the towing vehicle including a full tank of fuel and all standard equipment without passengers or cargo).

 

Irrespective of the word kerb weight, in the case of a claim, would it be beyond this insurer to take the vehicle, fill it with fuel, remove any cargo and passengers and weigh it?

 

 

And yet they dont define the mass of the caravan, so they could just as easily be referring to the MRO as the MTPLM.

 

I wonder if they also insure the Coach and Horses that I suspect could be driven through this wording legally.

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51 minutes ago, FrankBullet said:

They will go on the Mass in Service on the V5.

 

Lovely to see another 15-page thread in the making with a circular discussion using the words ‘weight’ and ‘mass’

 

Indeed so but this is a very different slant in that the impact could be significant.

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27 minutes ago, Towtug said:

And yet they dont define the mass of the caravan, so they could just as easily be referring to the MRO as the MTPLM.

 

Logically I would think that as the MTPLM is specifically defined and plated, for important reasons, that his would be what an insurer would be referring to but of course cannot be sure.

 

I thought MRO's were not plated and notoriously inaccurate anyway.

 

Yes it's very open, probably best to steer clear of insurers having these clauses.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Griff said:

 

Logically I would think that as the MTPLM is specifically defined and plated, for important reasons, that his would be what an insurer would be referring to but of course cannot be sure.

 

I thought MRO's were not plated and notoriously inaccurate anyway.

 

Yes it's very open, probably best to steer clear of insurers having these clauses.

 

Spot on with your last sentence - smacks of trying to ensure that every option not to pay is high on their agenda.  Both firms Talk about caravan weight which, to a lay person, should be 'actual'.  I have just today moved from Towergate as a direct result of this and, Oh yes, a 40% increase over last year!!

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3 hours ago, Griff said:

 

I agree on formal documentation but playing devils advocate :ph34r: and taking Lifesure as an example, they specify their interpretation : (the weight of the towing vehicle including a full tank of fuel and all standard equipment without passengers or cargo).

 

Irrespective of the word kerb weight, in the case of a claim, would it be beyond this insurer to take the vehicle, fill it with fuel, remove any cargo and passengers and weigh it?

 

 

 

At least their interpretation is correct. Trouble is, that figure isn't documented anywhere. Of course, they could weigh the vehicle as you suggest, but they would have to lay their hands on the vehicle first and I can't imagine that they would go to such lengths. Besides it could weight differently then than at the time the incident calling for insurance coverage happened.

 

3 hours ago, FrankBullet said:

They will go on the Mass in Service on the V5.

 

Lovely to see another 15-page thread in the making with a circular discussion using the words ‘weight’ and ‘mass’

 

Virtually without exception Mass in Service is less than kerbweight. The difference can be by as much as 150kg, so the policyholder would be at a severe disadvantage if the insurance company insists on using the Mass in Service figure instead of kerbweight.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Lutz said:

 

 

 

 

Virtually without exception Mass in Service is less than kerbweight. The difference can be by as much as 150kg, so the policyholder would be at a severe disadvantage if the insurance company insists on using the Mass in Service figure instead of kerbweight.

 

 

 

Maybe when declared correctly. 

 

In every bit of documentation including handbook and brochure my kerbweight is 1749kg.

Mass in Service V5 is 1900kg

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assuming you are not restricted by your insurance i would just try it and see how you get on.  I towed an abbey 520 (same caravan but different internal layout) with a new mondeo and was just under 115% ratio and it towed lovely. 

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48 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

Maybe when declared correctly. 

 

In every bit of documentation including handbook and brochure my kerbweight is 1749kg.

Mass in Service V5 is 1900kg

 

Considering kerbweight includes a full tank and all factory fitted optional extras or permanent features such as a towbar but Mass in Service doesn't include any of that and only a 90% full tank, it's unlikely that the 75kg for the driver and sundry items which are included in Mass in Service are going to be sufficient to make up the difference. I therefore feel fairly confident when I say Mass in Service is nearly always going to be less than kerbweight. If the documentation in your case says something else, I suspect someone got their data wrong.

Besides, kerbweight is specific to each and every vehicle. Therefore, a single figure in a handbook or brochure is never going to be accurate for all vehicles of the same model. One would have to at least quote a range. Mass in Service, on the other hand, because it doesn't reflect weights of optional extras is generic for all variants of the same vehicle covered by the same type approval.

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Leaving aside the vague and ambiguous wording of the insurance policies, GTW of this outfit could be a problem and it is likely to be rather underpowered.

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6 hours ago, Lutz said:

Virtually without exception Mass in Service is less than kerbweight. The difference can be by as much as 150kg, so the policyholder would be at a severe disadvantage if the insurance company insists on using the Mass in Service figure instead of kerbweight.

 

 

 

If an owner can evidence something better than the V5 then they should, but in the absence of that the V5 is the only legal document relating to that specific car so it’s entirely appropriate for an insurer to use this document.

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1 hour ago, Lutz said:

 

Considering kerbweight includes a full tank and all factory fitted optional extras or permanent features such as a towbar but Mass in Service doesn't include any of that and only a 90% full tank, it's unlikely that the 75kg for the driver and sundry items which are included in Mass in Service are going to be sufficient to make up the difference. I therefore feel fairly confident when I say Mass in Service is nearly always going to be less than kerbweight. If the documentation in your case says something else, I suspect someone got their data wrong.

Besides, kerbweight is specific to each and every vehicle. Therefore, a single figure in a handbook or brochure is never going to be accurate for all vehicles of the same model. One would have to at least quote a range. Mass in Service, on the other hand, because it doesn't reflect weights of optional extras is generic for all variants of the same vehicle covered by the same type approval.

 

What does caravanners do in Germany? Do they follow a 100% recommendation or do they tow up to the towing limit of the car?

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, FrankBullet said:

 

If an owner can evidence something better than the V5 then they should, but in the absence of that the V5 is the only legal document relating to that specific car so it’s entirely appropriate for an insurer to use this document.

 

Why do the insurance companies then refer to kerbweight when Mass in Service is the only documented unladen weight?

 

1 hour ago, AndersG said:

 

What does caravanners do in Germany? Do they follow a 100% recommendation or do they tow up to the towing limit of the car?

 

 

In general, the vast majority of those that are happy with the speed limit of 80km/h that normally applies to vehicles towing trailers will tow up to the towing limit. Only those that want to tow at 100km/h are affected because then a weight ratio limit of 100% applies legally in the case of caravans (120% for other types of trailer). Kerbweight is not an issue because there is no German equivalent to UK definition of kerbweight.

By the way, if the trailer/caravan is not fitted with shock absorbers (dampers), a weight ratio limit of 30% applies if one wishes to tow at 100km/h.

 

Edited by Lutz
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2 hours ago, Lutz said:

 

 Therefore, a single figure in a handbook or brochure is never going to be accurate for all vehicles of the same model. One would have to at least quote a range. Mass in Service, on the other hand, because it doesn't reflect weights of optional extras is generic for all variants of the same vehicle covered by the same type approval.

 

The problem is many manufactures do quote a single "minimum" kerbweight for a specific engine size but usually that's only for the poverty spec model and sometimes for a spec not even available for that market.

 

Bragging rights so the manufacturer can claim how much lighter the "New" model is.

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40 minutes ago, Lutz said:

 

Why do the insurance companies then refer to kerbweight when Mass in Service is the only documented unladen weight?

 

 

In general, the vast majority of those that are happy with the speed limit of 80km/h that normally applies to vehicles towing trailers will tow up to the towing limit. Only those that want to tow at 100km/h are affected because then a weight ratio limit of 100% applies legally in the case of caravans (120% for other types of trailer). Kerbweight is not an issue because there is no German equivalent to UK definition of kerbweight.

By the way, if the trailer/caravan is not fitted with shock absorbers (dampers), a weight ratio limit of 30% applies if one wishes to tow at 100km/h.

 

 

What weight definition is used for the car to calculate the 30/100/120% ratio?

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12 minutes ago, Black Grouse said:

 

What weight definition is used for the car to calculate the 30/100/120% ratio?

 

In the first instance, the powers-that-be will use the MIRO shown on the German equivalent of the V5c because that would be the easiest way for an on-the-spot check as you are obliged to carry the document with you. However, as I pointed out, for reasons explained above, that figure could be significantly less than the actual weight of the vehicle. Therefore, in case of dispute, I would think that you could refer to the Actual Mass (Item 13.2) of the Certificate of Conformity which you aren't obliged to produce on demand, but you could submit if necessary. Actual Mass will undoubtedly be greater than MIRO (Item 13). German law is a bit vague so I suppose that a court would have to decide whether Actual Mass or Mass in Running Order is applicable if it's a close call. I don't know if there has ever been a case of precedence to resolve the issue once and for all because generally, in cases like this, the powers-that-be tend to take a pragmatic approach and will not follow up if the differences are not too great.

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On 13/05/2019 at 21:56, laurastoppard said:

Hi

We are looking at buying an Abbey Spectrum 620 (6 berth) The Mass in running order is 1469kg and the MTPLM is 1800kg

We currently drive a 2005 Ford Galaxy which has a kerbweight of 1731kg but according to the manual the car is capable of towing 2000kg.

Would our car legally tow this size caravan or would we need to get a bigger car.

 

Leaving aside any insurance conditions, I wouldn’t tow it on the weight issue alone.

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The reason I answered that I wouldn't was that if you rearrange the question we get, will my family and myself be safe with this combination if I'm involved in a accident or a snake on the motorway.

My car has similar weight and towing values but with a lower centre of gravity,  I'm for the what if scenario, but I would be thinking of the family's safety rather than thinking about, will the insurance cover the car when I have the accident.

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On 13/05/2019 at 21:56, laurastoppard said:

Hi

We are looking at buying an Abbey Spectrum 620 (6 berth) The Mass in running order is 1469kg and the MTPLM is 1800kg

We currently drive a 2005 Ford Galaxy which has a kerbweight of 1731kg but according to the manual the car is capable of towing 2000kg.

The car would be loaded with 2 adults and 4 children plus clothes and food. In the caravan we would  have the awning and poles,groundsheet plus 2 water barrels and waste, 6 chairs and a table.

Would our car legally tow this size caravan or would we need to get a bigger car as we really need to buy a bigger caravan as my husband cant take much more sleeping in the awning.

My husband has been towing for 12 years and holds the B+E licence.

 

 

If the OP is still reading.

 

With an MTPLM of 1800kgs and a MIRO of 1469kgs I suspect the weight plate has been upgraded at some point, a 331kg payload is very generous!  Our twin axle Sprite has a similar MIRO but an MTPLM of only 1620kgs!

 

Light loading could drop the actual MTPLM down to under 1700kgs giving a bit more safety margin.  Assuming your licence includes the "E" entitlement and you don't have any insurance clauses (as detailed in other responses) then you are legal.  I don't know what engine the Galaxy has but performance is likely to be "sedate" at best.

 

As other have said, with a family of 6 plus all the paraphernalia loaded into the car you also need to consider the GTW limitations.  Personally, if I had to stick with the Galaxy I'd consider a lighter six berth. 

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