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Towtug

Electric/Hybrid vehicles

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15 minutes ago, logiclee said:

This is what is normal currently.

 

I am sure hat you have a point to make but don't fancy a 1 hour video. Is there a precis?

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54 minutes ago, Grandpa Steve said:

 

A friend of mine manages quite well in his Tesla Model S E 90D as he travels the UK, planning a 30 minute stop at a motorway services for a top up if he expects delays due to traffic.

 

Otherwise he charges either at home or at any one of his hotels across the UK.

One of the keys to this are the words "his hotels" which guarantee him a charging point at the far end of any journey!

Another is the name "Tesla" with its attendant price tag.

And yet another are the words "travels the UK" clearly his overall mileage is sufficient for the cost/mile saving to make a decent dent in initial capital outlay and battery lifetime costs.

 

EVs work very well for a very small proportion of motorists.

The proportion of motorists who fit the EV pattern is growing, but its a long way from the majority.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Easy T said:

I am sure hat you have a point to make but don't fancy a 1 hour video. Is there a precis?

 

UK charging infrastructure is not good enough and a rip off.

Edited by logiclee

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Simple just carry a petrol/fossil fuel portable driven generator around, stay off grid and recharge the towing vehicle or the MH? :rolleyes: ;)!!!!

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UK annual consumption of diesel and petrol totalled 23 million TOE ('tons oil equivalent' in 2017, latest figures from the Ofice of National Statistics). 

 

See https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/728374/UK_Energy_in_Brief_2018.pdf page 22

 

This equates to 267,490 GWhrs of electricity.  This is an average output of 30.5GW.

 

A typical nuclear power station with two reactors will generate about 4GW, so we would need to build 15 new power stations if internal combustion engines were abandoned completely.

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On ‎03‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 15:54, Towtug said:

Also from the Commercial vehicle show.

I had a couple of questions to ask, again no real answers 

Firstly, If they do manage to ban IC engines does this mean the end of the hybrid as afterall they are just using a IC to drive a generator.

 

Secondly, all of the manufacturers were pushing quite hard their Electric and / or Hybrid vehicles , Ford Transit, Peugeot, Citroen, Vauxhall , LDV.  None of the vans I saw had more than about 150 miles range and required a 2hrs + charge time, so whilst these might be OK for a window cleaner or plumber etc to get from job to job in a local area , they will never be any use for shopping deliveries etc.  A guy I was speaking to from one of the shopping delivery companies told me their vehicles worked about 16 hours/day and covered about 600 miles/day, with the first drop usually about 50 miles from the depot. So that means they would need to recharge 4 X each day and so in essence they would need double the vans and drivers.

 

So does this also mean the end of the MH market, most manufacturers simply take a current N1 commercial and convert it to a MH , Im pretty sure most people want to drive 3-400 miles to their destination not have to stop half way there to recharge, and of course when they get to their site surely the expectation would be to recharge when on site , how many sites could accomodate that. Maybe the NCC have a plan.

 

Of course, im playing Devils advocate here and being deliberately provocative, I know battery technology will improve, I know we will probably get to the stage where battery swapping is usual, but it would seem to me that there is an awful lot of infrastructure that needs to be changed/developed in order to keep pace with the political promises made, and I haven't seen anything that tells me how much that is going to cost me, have you?

 

I heard a story yesterday of a guy who had bought a Second hand electric van/taxi (he couldnt afford a new one) he had also bought a battery warranty. A year in, the battery wont accept a charge, the dealer cant fix it and needs to charge over £1800 to remove the battery and send it away for diagnosis and rectification (even though the battery is covered) , which means that due to the age of the vehicle its not economically viable.

 

Are we attempting to run before we can walk?

 

Not at all ..

 

You'll pay 1800 smackers for a turbo replacement on a combustion engine or auto gear control module so everything is relevant. Though it would be interesting to know the mileage on the car in question and general condition.

 

I posted in favour of electric vehicles on here  2-3 years aback and got quite ridiculed even by folks who are now stating they are considering BEV purchase … Happy Days !

 

There's is market for the current BEV's we have in production now that suits many user profiles. It will be more interesting in say 2-4 years when particularly when graphene batteries become  available, They are a supercapacitor that can rapidly charge and discharge giving with vehicles ranges easily around 300 - 400 miles and you'll charge in around 10 minutes or at least the same time as it does to fill your fossil fuel tank at a filling station and yes you will be charging at filling / charge stations.

 

Personally I cant wait to see them especially in autonomous vehicles and they'll make towing a dream. 

 

Very Happy Days !

 

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6 minutes ago, kelper said:

UK annual consumption of diesel and petrol totalled 23 million TOE ('tons oil equivalent' in 2017, latest figures from the Ofice of National Statistics). 

 

See https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/728374/UK_Energy_in_Brief_2018.pdf page 22

 

This equates to 267,490 GWhrs of electricity.  This is an average output of 30.5GW.

 

A typical nuclear power station with two reactors will generate about 4GW, so we would need to build 15 new power stations if internal combustion engines were abandoned completely.

There you go - where it all comes from and how much we are using http://gridwatch.co.uk/. It gets ever so close to the maximum when it's cold wet and windy in the winter so they'll need to put in a lot more capacity together with thicker wires all over the place

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15 minutes ago, SNJJNS said:

Simple just carry a petrol/fossil fuel portable driven generator around, stay off grid and recharge the towing vehicle or the MH? :rolleyes: ;)!!!!

 

A decent sized portable generator to carry in the boot would be around 1kW

 

It would take you 90 hours to charge the ipace and a lot of fuel. ;) 

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1 minute ago, Silverback said:

There's is market for the current BEV's we have in production now that suits many user profiles. It will be more interesting in say 2-4 years when particularly when graphene batteries become  available, They are a supercapacitor that can rapidly charge and discharge giving with vehicles ranges easily around 300 - 400 miles and you'll charge in around 10 minutes or at least the same time as it does to fill your fossil fuel tank at a filling station and yes you will be charging at filling / charge stations.

 

Personally I cant wait to see them especially in autonomous vehicles and they'll make towing a dream. 

 

Very Happy Days !

 

 

Agree with you entirely, can’t wait

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, FrankBullet said:

 

Agree with you entirely, can’t wait

 

Here very soon and plenty of grid capacity to charge so I hear ... So Don't blink :D

Edited by Silverback

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, kelper said:

UK annual consumption of diesel and petrol totalled 23 million TOE ('tons oil equivalent' in 2017, latest figures from the Ofice of National Statistics). 

 

See https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/728374/UK_Energy_in_Brief_2018.pdf page 22

 

This equates to 267,490 GWhrs of electricity.  This is an average output of 30.5GW.

 

A typical nuclear power station with two reactors will generate about 4GW, so we would need to build 15 new power stations if internal combustion engines were abandoned completely.

 

Hinkley C will be the most expensive object/building on planet earth when it is finished and that will be 3.2GW.

 

But maximum demand is not the biggest issue or the most expensive issue if EV is to replace internal combustion. The grid is on a knife edge now, most of the 400kV and 132kV grid infrastructure was installed in the 60's/70's/80's and is in need of serious investment just to maintain current levels. We also have to add in the upgrades to more local  11kV/415V systems that in no way can currently cope with everyone home charging,

 

There's two trains of thought in the industry. One is we'll have to spend the money to upgrade and the other is the tech will increase and ultra fast chargers will mean home chargers will not be required.

 

Time will tell.

Edited by logiclee

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, matelodave said:

There you go - where it all comes from and how much we are using http://gridwatch.co.uk/. It gets ever so close to the maximum when it's cold wet and windy in the winter so they'll need to put in a lot more capacity together with thicker wires all over the place

 

I wonder how much electricity is used to refine fossil fuel. Now there's a question 🤔😄

 

"Refineries used 47 teraWatt-hours of electricity to refine 5.3 billion barrels of oil into various products"

Edited by Silverback

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Strikes me all this Talk about the lack of fast chargers is largely a red herring.  The majority of people the majority of time don’t do 200 mile journeys, they potter about and do substantially less than 200 miles, actually according to the RAC foundation the average car journey in the SE apparently the longest journeys in the UK is 11.2 miles. An amount that an overnight charge even at a slow rate could cope with.  

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35 minutes ago, fred said:

 The majority of people the majority of time don’t do 200 mile journeys, they potter about and do substantially less than 200 miles, actually according to the RAC foundation the average car journey in the SE apparently the longest journeys in the UK is 11.2 miles. An amount that an overnight charge even at a slow rate could cope with.  

I do not doubt that is true, but most people do not just want a car to do the average journey. We want to be able to do a 200 or more mile journey whenever we want to.

Just look at a typical motorway filling station, at anything but quiet times there is a steady stream of drivers filling up with fuel, and why would anyone pay motorway prices unless the nature of the journey dictated it?

 

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22 minutes ago, Stevan said:

I do not doubt that is true, but most people do not just want a car to do the average journey. We want to be able to do a 200 or more mile journey whenever we want to.

Just look at a typical motorway filling station, at anything but quiet times there is a steady stream of drivers filling up with fuel, and why would anyone pay motorway prices unless the nature of the journey dictated it?

 

 

 

It is totally true and your totally dismissing the industries investments into user profiles.   Current BEV's and their varying ranges totally sits with many vehicle users. You'll get a profile which travels on average 12 miles a day, then a third of that socially & even when holidaying it's just a journey to their own or nearest city airport .

 

 

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58 minutes ago, Stevan said:

We want to be able to do a 200 or more mile journey whenever we want to.

 

 

Really?  People may want to but how many actually do a 200 mile journey in a year?  I do two long distance journeys fairly regularly.  1 is approximately 170 miles one way and every motorway services I pass these days has charging stations. The other 155 miles single journey and the company I visit has installed  charging points. I haven’t got an electric vehicle and I am unlikely to get one in the near future, but they are the future and the future is a lot closer than we think.  There are always exceptions but for a substantial number of people Electric powered vehicles would be feasible today.  

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5 hours ago, fred said:

for a substantial number of people Electric powered vehicles would be feasible today.  

Feasible is not the same as desirable or practical though

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6 hours ago, Stevan said:

I do not doubt that is true, but most people do not just want a car to do the average journey. We want to be able to do a 200 or more mile journey whenever we want to.

Just look at a typical motorway filling station, at anything but quiet times there is a steady stream of drivers filling up with fuel, and why would anyone pay motorway prices unless the nature of the journey dictated it?

 

 

I see less and less people in the filling part of service stations on major journeys. However most cars have a range of over 300 miles so in many instances I suspect it’s a case of poor planning.

 

EV’s are getting closer to that 200 mile journey you crave, never mind Tesla’s, cars like the Zoe and i3 are almost there (in real world driving), okay they need to be charged before hand rather than getting in it and finding only 50 miles left on the range but that’s easily overcome.

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33 minutes ago, FrankBullet said:

I see less and less people in the filling part of service stations on major journeys. However most cars have a range of over 300 miles so in many instances I suspect it’s a case of poor planning.

 

Rarely visit motorway fuel stations. If I do it would be with a caravan in tow and probably once every 3 years on somewhere like a 250 mile run. Fill tank, use loo and stretch legs. Never use service area these days. I have also never found the pumps very busy and so if we want to use the loo I don't feel under pressure to clear the pumps. OH goes whilst I fill and then I pay and use loo. 

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3 hours ago, Easy T said:

Feasible is not the same as desirable or practical though

What’s  not practical or desirable with the examples I gave.   Ok one of the journeys, with a car with a 200mile range.  I might have to stop once or twice for 30 minutes to get a fast charge.   The journey I do  means that I drive almost 400 mile in a day so a couple of 30 minute stops are not only practical and  I would argue practical.  

 

PS,  Interesting link Temporary increased range from Tesla

 

PPS During a visit to my companies US HQ, plugged into one of free chargers in the parking lot.  There was what appeared to be a Ford Mustang licence plate was MPG LOL.   Note apparently there is not a E Mustang but I saw what I saw. 

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1 minute ago, fred said:

What’s  not practical or desirable with the examples I gave.   Ok one of the journeys, with a car with a 200mile range.  I might have to stop once or twice for 30 minutes to get a fast charge.  

I did not say that it was not desirable and practical for you - only that it was not necessarily desirable or practical - depends on individual circumstance

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In the future, we may have to give up the luxury of unlimited range that the ICE gives us.  Longer journeys will have to be by train and completed with a hire car.  It's just a matter of changing the norm.  We will adapt.  Once petrol and diesel are phased out we will just accept some limitations on long journeys.

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10 minutes ago, kelper said:

In the future, we may have to give up the luxury of unlimited range that the ICE gives us.

I don't expect to live that long and still be mobile.

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I have no doubt all this will happen as on the news today it’s on about zero green house gas emissions by 2050. I just wonder how many will be in fuel poverty as they implement all this change.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, fred said:

Really?  People may want to but how many actually do a 200 mile journey in a year?  I do two long distance journeys fairly regularly.  1 is approximately 170 miles one way and every motorway services I pass these days has charging stations. The other 155 miles single journey and the company I visit has installed  charging points. I haven’t got an electric vehicle and I am unlikely to get one in the near future, but they are the future and the future is a lot closer than we think.  There are always exceptions but for a substantial number of people Electric powered vehicles would be feasible today.  

I only disagree with a few words, the utterly groundless assertion that "the future is a lot closer than we think"!

Before EVs become the vehicle of choice for many more than the 0.7% reportedly buying them  it will be necessary for the industry to overcome both the actual and perceived drawbacks:-

1. The need to cover a high mileage to enable the low running cost per mile to outweigh the higher fixed costs.

2. The availability of numerically sufficient charging points. We only have assumptions that these will increase ahead of car sales, if they don't this will be a severe blocker to sales.

3. The availability of sufficiently convenient charging points.

4. The perceived range issues.

 

Pass me the rose tinted spectacles!

 

Edited by Stevan
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