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Also from the Commercial vehicle show.

I had a couple of questions to ask, again no real answers 

Firstly, If they do manage to ban IC engines does this mean the end of the hybrid as afterall they are just using a IC to drive a generator.

 

Secondly, all of the manufacturers were pushing quite hard their Electric and / or Hybrid vehicles , Ford Transit, Peugeot, Citroen, Vauxhall , LDV.  None of the vans I saw had more than about 150 miles range and required a 2hrs + charge time, so whilst these might be OK for a window cleaner or plumber etc to get from job to job in a local area , they will never be any use for shopping deliveries etc.  A guy I was speaking to from one of the shopping delivery companies told me their vehicles worked about 16 hours/day and covered about 600 miles/day, with the first drop usually about 50 miles from the depot. So that means they would need to recharge 4 X each day and so in essence they would need double the vans and drivers.

 

So does this also mean the end of the MH market, most manufacturers simply take a current N1 commercial and convert it to a MH , Im pretty sure most people want to drive 3-400 miles to their destination not have to stop half way there to recharge, and of course when they get to their site surely the expectation would be to recharge when on site , how many sites could accomodate that. Maybe the NCC have a plan.

 

Of course, im playing Devils advocate here and being deliberately provocative, I know battery technology will improve, I know we will probably get to the stage where battery swapping is usual, but it would seem to me that there is an awful lot of infrastructure that needs to be changed/developed in order to keep pace with the political promises made, and I haven't seen anything that tells me how much that is going to cost me, have you?

 

I heard a story yesterday of a guy who had bought a Second hand electric van/taxi (he couldnt afford a new one) he had also bought a battery warranty. A year in, the battery wont accept a charge, the dealer cant fix it and needs to charge over £1800 to remove the battery and send it away for diagnosis and rectification (even though the battery is covered) , which means that due to the age of the vehicle its not economically viable.

 

Are we attempting to run before we can walk?

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As I understand it, the 2040 date is a statement of intent to ban the sale of new cars which aren't electrified in some way - so hybrids, PHEVs, range extenders will still be legal as well as pure EVs.

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The whole electric vehicle issue raises some major questions:

Where will we get all this extra electricity from to charge them? Typical flat battery takes 7KW for in excess of 7 hours. 5 million vehicles being charges means 49GW of power - which is about what the whole country takes on peak demand, so do we switch everything else off - hospitals, railways, etc etc every night?

Battery swapping? No way - in most electric vehicles the whole floor pan is the battery.

I see BMW (or was it Merc) are trying to build a battery that can be charged in half an hour. If a typical (even small) car battery is 45KW, it means you will need near enough 100KW to charge the battery and even if that were done at 1000V it would still require 100A+ and you can't push that through a plug!

 

The whole thing has just not been thought out thoroughly or properly.

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Remember when catalysts first came in, horror stories of ‘£1800 cat will write off car’? 

 

There’s lots of points in there, but I’d be amazed if a supermarket delivery vehicle does 600 miles a day over 16 hours - an average of just under 40mph including delivery time and loading throughout the day, I’d imagine it’s half that at the absolute most.  There will be commercial vans this wouldn’t work for but there are those it will - I’m about to change three of my diesel vans (a 2004 Ford courier jaloppy, 2012 Ford Fiesta and 2016 Citroen Berlingo) for three electric vans, no issues with range at all - the Fiesta is used on the motorway for 60 miles a day, the other two go around town on shorter trips.

 

Motorhome will be ripe for EV, but the main issue will be keeping inside 3500kg which will be impossible. I’m sure some want to do 600 miles in a day but I would have thought a 200 mile range and a slow relaxed charge would be just the ticket.

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11 minutes ago, FrankBullet said:

Remember when catalysts first came in, horror stories of ‘£1800 cat will write off car’? 

 

There’s lots of points in there, but I’d be amazed if a supermarket delivery vehicle does 600 miles a day over 16 hours - an average of just under 40mph including delivery time and loading throughout the day, I’d imagine it’s half that at the absolute most.  There will be commercial vans this wouldn’t work for but there are those it will - I’m about to change three of my diesel vans (a 2004 Ford courier jaloppy, 2012 Ford Fiesta and 2016 Citroen Berlingo) for three electric vans, no issues with range at all - the Fiesta is used on the motorway for 60 miles a day, the other two go around town on shorter trips.

 

Motorhome will be ripe for EV, but the main issue will be keeping inside 3500kg which will be impossible. I’m sure some want to do 600 miles in a day but I would have thought a 200 mile range and a slow relaxed charge would be just the ticket.

 

The government has already announced that B-licence drivers will be permitted to drive 4,500kg electrified vans.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Black Grouse said:

 

The government has already announced that B-licence drivers will be permitted to drive 4,500kg electrified vans.

 

As said the weights are going to be adjusted that the battery weight is not counted if I remember .

 

Electric motorhome is already available if you have £180 k.

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/news/first-all-electric-motorhome-launched-in-europe

 

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave

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1 hour ago, Black Grouse said:

 

The government has already announced that B-licence drivers will be permitted to drive 4,500kg electrified vans.

 

Brilliant, I’d missed this.

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Posted (edited)

Hope this helps

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=phev+towing+review&view=detail&mid=7F92672B3EF32DCAE2A07F92672B3EF32DCAE2A0&FORM=VIRE

 

Tesla are already years ahead with electric vehicles able to tow caravans, this country needs to increase its investment in wind turbine, solar energy, hydroelectric and wave energy, it is a shame they have given the go ahead for a new coal fire power station and cut the solar energy grants ?

Edited by Oscarmax

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I wonder how many charging points I would find along the Sahara ??

 

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9 minutes ago, TedNewman said:

I wonder how many charging points I would find along the Sahara ??

 

Do you go there often then:unsure:

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Oscarmax said:

Hope this helps

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=phev+towing+review&view=detail&mid=7F92672B3EF32DCAE2A07F92672B3EF32DCAE2A0&FORM=VIRE

 

Tesla are already years ahead with electric vehicles able to tow caravans, this country needs to increase its investment in wind turbine, solar energy, hydroelectric and wave energy, it is a shame they have given the go ahead for a new coal fire power station and cut the solar energy grants ?

 

No new large scale coal station for the UK.  They will be all gone by 2025.

 

More wind and solar isn't the answer. When its night time and we have a high pressure system over the UK they can't help us. During the beast from the east we were at less than 1% renewables during darkness peaks. We don't have the geography for hydro.

 

If we want zero CO2 we have to either crack the problem of large scale electricity storage or go Nuclear.  Currently our only option when the wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shineing is to use Gas, Coal and Diesel.

Edited by logiclee
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On 03/05/2019 at 19:56, Oscarmax said:

 this country needs to increase its investment in wind turbine, solar energy, hydroelectric and wave energy, it is a shame they have given the go ahead for a new coal fire power station and cut the solar energy grants ?

 

Wind turbines are fine if you like the countyside being turned into an industrial site, and the wind is blowing. Solar is fine as long as it is day time. There is very little further capacity for hydro-electric power in the UK.  What is needed is for people to get over their phobias about nuclear power stations.

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Britain’s first 150kW ultra-fast electric car chargers are coming soon.

 

The next generation of ultra-fast electric car charging is coming to Britain with BP Chargemaster revealing the UK’s first 150kW charger unit.  

Called the Ultracharge 150, the new unit will go live soon on BP Chargemaster’s Polar public charging network. It was launched to the public at the recent Fully Charged Live show at Silverstone.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/new-cars/britains-first-150kw-ultra-fast-electric-car-chargers-are-coming-soon/ar-AACFEmr?li=AAnZ9Ug

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4 hours ago, Grandpa Steve said:

 

Britain’s first 150kW ultra-fast electric car chargers are coming soon.

 

The next generation of ultra-fast electric car charging is coming to Britain with BP Chargemaster revealing the UK’s first 150kW charger unit.  

Called the Ultracharge 150, the new unit will go live soon on BP Chargemaster’s Polar public charging network. It was launched to the public at the recent Fully Charged Live show at Silverstone.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/new-cars/britains-first-150kw-ultra-fast-electric-car-chargers-are-coming-soon/ar-AACFEmr?li=AAnZ9Ug

So if you want a range of 200 miles the ultra fast will take 20 minutes to top up the car.  If this is ultra fast then what is normal?

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Looks as if forecourts will cease to exist in the future if they can only support 2 fast chargers at 20 minutes a time giving a car throughput of 6 an hour if each wants a 200 mile range. To have many more chargers might need a power station next to it.

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2 minutes ago, Paul1957 said:

Looks as if forecourts will cease to exist in the future if they can only support 2 fast chargers at 20 minutes a time giving a car throughput of 6 an hour if each wants a 200 mile range. To have many more chargers might need a power station next to it.

Plus the cabling which will be ultra thick to support the charging of several vehicles at the same time.

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1 hour ago, Durbanite said:

So if you want a range of 200 miles the ultra fast will take 20 minutes to top up the car.  If this is ultra fast then what is normal?

 

Don't ask me, I just posted a link to an article I spotted ;)

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50 minutes ago, Paul1957 said:

Looks as if forecourts will cease to exist in the future if they can only support 2 fast chargers at 20 minutes a time giving a car throughput of 6 an hour if each wants a 200 mile range. To have many more chargers might need a power station next to it.

Yes, if EVs ever become the majority, a typical filling station, instead of maybe six pumps each capable of serving one car every 5 minutes with the customer (and his/her passengers just waiting either standing or in the car, will need to have about 24 bays to each serve one car every 20 minutes, combined with some form of waiting facility for the humans.

More likely, cars will be routinely charged at home, work, or a dedicated charging bay near home. Augmented by service areas with large numbers (likely into the hundreds!) of charging bays with the driver and passengers being expected to take a rest/comfort/meal break.

 

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They will doubtless nearly all be pay at the 'pump' to shave time off

On 03/05/2019 at 15:54, Towtug said:

So does this also mean the end of the MH market, most manufacturers simply take a current N1 commercial and convert it to a MH ,

Of course not as for many firms these vehicles would be a white elephant. 150 miles, laden presumably, what range in sleet and snow in the depths of winter with lights on I wonder?

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1 hour ago, Paul1957 said:

Looks as if forecourts will cease to exist in the future if they can only support 2 fast chargers at 20 minutes a time giving a car throughput of 6 an hour if each wants a 200 mile range. To have many more chargers might need a power station next to it.

 

If only people didn’t have to use the charging stations so often if for example you could charge them at home...or work...or when shopping...or when visiting the zoo...  

 

Only when a journey needs some sort of top-up as the distance is too long for the home/work trip will stations be required.

 

So then we Talk about infrastructure...then where does the electricity come from and the same white noise begins...

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Posted (edited)

Fast chargers are indeed coming, but the cable over-laying project to run it is a long way off. 11kV fast chargers at street level are in the pipeline but above ground street furniture at LV has enough risks, MV street furniture is a big HSE concern for the industry. 

Edited by GaryB1969

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My son has an electric plug in hybrid and I understand that you can only fast charge the battery once/day. He is pleased with his car and one of the unexpected side benefits is that much of the braking is regenerative so there is virtually no brake dust so the wheels remain cleanish. At the moment there are many problems to overcome but given time I am sure that they will solved. I understand that some countries are investing in hydrogen fuel cell powered cars, perhaps this is the future.

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1 hour ago, FrankBullet said:

 

If only people didn’t have to use the charging stations so often if for example you could charge them at home...or work...or when shopping...or when visiting the zoo...  

 

Only when a journey needs some sort of top-up as the distance is too long for the home/work trip will stations be required.

 

So then we Talk about infrastructure...then where does the electricity come from and the same white noise begins...

 

A friend of mine manages quite well in his Tesla Model S E 90D as he travels the UK, planning a 30 minute stop at a motorway services for a top up if he expects delays due to traffic.

 

Otherwise he charges either at home or at any one of his hotels across the UK.

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34 minutes ago, barlyn said:

My son has an electric plug in hybrid and I understand that you can only fast charge the battery once/day. He is pleased with his car and one of the unexpected side benefits is that much of the braking is regenerative so there is virtually no brake dust so the wheels remain cleanish. At the moment there are many problems to overcome but given time I am sure that they will solved. I understand that some countries are investing in hydrogen fuel cell powered cars, perhaps this is the future.

I am not aware of any large scale investment in Hydrogen fuel cell development these days.  I'm aware of manufacturers of some Street vehicles and some Construction vehicles for inner city use dabbling,  and of course there are some buses using hydrogen.  But Hydrogen presents it's own problems with production storage and delivery.

Siemens/Volvo are pushing forward with "trolley bus" hybrid  artics. I saw a demo recently of platooned pantograph electric trucks, and all I could think of was why dont they call it a train.

 

It's clear to me that whichever way the industry goes the changes to infrastructure will be massive and costly. Ultimately theres only one person that will pay for it and that's the end user.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Durbanite said:

So if you want a range of 200 miles the ultra fast will take 20 minutes to top up the car.  If this is ultra fast then what is normal?

 

This is what is normal currently.

 

 

Edited by logiclee

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