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logiclee

Jag XF Mass in service surprise.

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I know we have discussed the differences many times between minimum kerbweights and Mass in service on the V5 etc but just had the V5 back for the XF.

 

The Handbook and Sales Brochure for the model year states 1749kg. Mass in Service on the V5 is 1900kg.

 

For over a decade I've had VAG products and the differences have always been minor. In fact for our Octavia, Skoda list the kerbweight as 1310kg and mass in service is 1320kg.

 

Lee

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That is a big difference! I have three different weights I can find for mine: -

 

Parkers                1849kg

Jag Brochure   1855kg (with note saying this is for baseline spec)

V5                           1969kg

 

Two options on mine will account for a good part of the 114kg difference between brochure and V5 namely - the factory-fit towbar and the spacesaver spare.

 

As a matter of interest I tried 'Towsafe' and it has the Jaguar brochure figure (if you enter the car manually) but the  V5 figure if you enter the registration.  

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Just shows how little relevance these numbers really have!

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That’s a chunky motor if it is actually 1900kg!

 

My V5 aligns directly with the VW brochure at 1505kg

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2 hours ago, Stevan said:

Just shows how little relevance these numbers really have!

 

V5 for my A6 3.0 Tdi Quattro also aligns with the handbook at 1795 kg. According to the handbook this includes 75 kg for driver and tank 90% full. On a weighbridge without a driver, half a tank of fuel and the addition of an aftermarket tow bar the weight is 1860 kg. 

 

All it means to me is the extra weight is lost payload in the car from its gross weight of 2330 kg, but again from the handbook "When towing a trailer, the gross vehicle weight and the maximum rear axle weight may be exceeded by up to 80kg". Interesting, and may be fun explaining if stopped at the roadside for weighing and the car axles are over 2330kg. The gross train weight is 4410 kg, so not a problem when towing 1500 kg, or even up to 100% kerb weight , whatever that may be.  

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Jaguar Land Rover products have ever been thus.  Base model numbers are given in the brochure.

 

My Freelander 2 GS auto was quoted KW at 1720-ish?  But the V5 had it at 1980-ish...  (I can't remember the precise numbers now off the top of my head.)

 

Other makes list the model variants weights in the brochure spec. which is more useful to those who plan to tow!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, FrankBullet said:

That’s a chunky motor if it is actually 1900kg!

 

My V5 aligns directly with the VW brochure at 1505kg

 

Would appear so Frank.

 

As said above the literature quotes base model and I have the top spec Portfolio  so the extra kit, bigger wheels electric climate seats and 17 speaker audio would account for the extra 150kg I'd suppose.

 

I do have seven trade approved weighbridges at work so I'll try and drop the car on one when I'm next in at a weekend.

 

Lee  

 

Edited by logiclee

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5 hours ago, logiclee said:

I know we have discussed the differences many times between minimum kerbweights and Mass in service on the V5 etc but just had the V5 back for the XF.

 

The Handbook and Sales Brochure for the model year states 1749kg. Mass in Service on the V5 is 1900kg.

 

For over a decade I've had VAG products and the differences have always been minor. In fact for our Octavia, Skoda list the kerbweight as 1310kg and mass in service is 1320kg.

 

Lee

 

Someone has got something wrong somewhere, and I'm not blaming you.

How mass in service can be significantly more than kerbweight beats me because mass in service is, or should be, for the base model with only standard factory fitted options. That figure is almost inevitably going to be a lot less than the actual vehicle as it was built and even the 75kg for the driver included in mass in service but not in kerbweight is unlikely to offset the difference. Therefore, more likely than not, kerbweight will be greater than mass in service.

It does appear, however, that some manufacturers, or whoever issues the V5c at the DVLA, is not aware of the definition of mass in service.

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Lutz said:

 

Someone has got something wrong somewhere, and I'm not blaming you.

How mass in service can be significantly more than kerbweight beats me because mass in service is, or should be, for the base model with only standard factory fitted options. That figure is almost inevitably going to be a lot less than the actual vehicle as it was built and even the 75kg for the driver included in mass in service but not in kerbweight is unlikely to offset the difference. Therefore, more likely than not, kerbweight will be greater than mass in service.

It does appear, however, that some manufacturers, or whoever issues the V5c at the DVLA, is not aware of the definition of mass in service.

 

I think where it falls down is the brochure will quote the kerbweight for a specific engine size in basic SE specification.

 

A top of the range model is going to be heavier due to the extra standard fit equipment.  

 

But they do not quote for every trim level.

 

 

Edited by logiclee

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16 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

I think where it falls down is the brochure will quote the kerbweight for a specific engine size in basic SE specification.

 

A top of the range model is going to be heavier due to the extra standard fit equipment.  

 

But they do not quote for every trim level.

 

 

 

There must be a big difference in engine weight between the aluminium Ingenium 2.0 and the cast iron 3.0 diesel

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Black Grouse said:

 

There must be a big difference in engine weight between the aluminium Ingenium 2.0 and the cast iron 3.0 diesel

 

The 2.2D is 65kg lighter than the 3.0V6. If I believe a youtube video the ingenium 2.0 is 35kg lighter than the 2.2

 

I'm surprised the 3.0 doesn't weigh more being V6, cast iron and twin turbo.

 

All 8 speed auto models of the Mk1  get the same ZF8HP70 gearbox rated for 700NM. So plenty of headroom left on the 450NM 2.2d.

 

But the Mk2 XF 2.0's get the lighter ZF8HP45 with the more powerful models at the torque limit.

 

 

Edited by logiclee

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It all boils down to what the manufacturer calls the base model and how this is defined in type approval, because that is what determines the mass in service figure. I suspect that different engines are covered by different type approval.

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Interesting thread so went and checked the weights on my V5.  MIS is 2347kg as opposed to the the quoted figure of 2272kg a difference of 75kg.  Max gross weight is the same at 2949kgs. 

What I did find interesting is that then maximum "tongue weight" (nose weight) for a trailer is 175kg however when i was phoning around for a tow bar I was told the maximum for the CRD 3.0L was 140kg.  Eventually we did find a tow bar that was rated for 150kg and that was the highest figure I could obtain for the Jeep specific towbar.

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Just goes to show how inconclusive mass in service figures are. Don't forget that kerbweight is with a full tank but mass in service only 90% full, so the true difference can never be exactly 75kg.

Your reference to 'tongue weight' suggests that the figure was taken over from the US spec model, because the Americans use the term tongue weight to describe noseweight. Maybe they have towbars in America that are rated at 175kg, but not here on this side of the Atlantic. Such towbars would not, however, be legal here because they aren't type approved.

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47 minutes ago, Lutz said:

It all boils down to what the manufacturer calls the base model and how this is defined in type approval, because that is what determines the mass in service figure. I suspect that different engines are covered by different type approval.

 

My own thoughts are that in the published brochure JLR list minimum kerbweight for engine so this will be for the SE. See Photo.

 

Then for the V5 they are quoting Mass in service for the actual model. The SE may well be  1745kg but is the Portfolio 150kg heavier with the 16 way electric climate seats, surround sound system with subwoofer in wheel well, and all the other bits?

It would be interesting to see what the Mass in Service is listed at for an SE.

 

jagxf.thumb.jpg.fb337f7ca0299228c58740db91bb8839.jpg

 

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24 minutes ago, Durbanite said:

Eventually we did find a tow bar that was rated for 150kg and that was the highest figure I could obtain for the Jeep specific towbar.

I had a similar issue with our 2009 Galaxy Mk3.  Noseweight was 80kg on older Galaxys... increased to 90kg by Ford.  But when ringing round for detachable bars most were still rated @ 80kg... except for, at the time, Bosal, where it was 100kg!

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1 hour ago, Lutz said:

Just goes to show how inconclusive mass in service figures are. Don't forget that kerbweight is with a full tank but mass in service only 90% full, so the true difference can never be exactly 75kg.

Your reference to 'tongue weight' suggests that the figure was taken over from the US spec model, because the Americans use the term tongue weight to describe noseweight. Maybe they have towbars in America that are rated at 175kg, but not here on this side of the Atlantic. Such towbars would not, however, be legal here because they aren't type approved.

Nope it is 175kg in my handbook and it specifically states for the 3.0l diesel engine.

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1 hour ago, logiclee said:

 

 

My own thoughts are that in the published brochure JLR list minimum kerbweight for engine so this will be for the SE. See Photo.

 

Then for the V5 they are quoting Mass in service for the actual model. The SE may well be  1745kg but is the Portfolio 150kg heavier with the 16 way electric climate seats, surround sound system with subwoofer in wheel well, and all the other bits?

It would be interesting to see what the Mass in Service is listed at for an SE.

 

 

I would imagine that the SE and the Portfolio to be type approved under the same number so the mass in service  would be the same. The 16 way electric climate seats, surround system with subwoofer are factory fitted options that are not included in the type approved base model.

 

22 minutes ago, Durbanite said:

Nope it is 175kg in my handbook and it specifically states for the 3.0l diesel engine.

 

I can't quite see the logic of coupling the noseweight limit with the engine type unless the underbody for the 3.0l diesel is specific and able to take a higher load due to its configuration.

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Readers need to remember that the data shown on the V5 is as supplied by whoever does the first registration, and if incorrect data is applied then the V5 will also be wrong.

 

Our last car was a VW Passat Estate Executive Style 140 BMT which had a towing weight from the plate of 1825Kg (correct.) We now have a VW Passat Estate 150 GT BMT which has a towing weight from the plate of 1825Kg but on the V5 it was 1800Kg. This error got me looking on the VW web site which showed the towing weight as 2000Kg!!

 

I took this up with VW corporate and after much checking it transpired that a batch of vehicles made at the time of mine at been fitted with incorrect plate weights. It seems that a dealer somewhere along the line had updated the plate but failed to notify the DVLA.

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The DVLA will, or should, issue the respective V5c in accordance with the details shown on the Certificate of Conformity. If the weight plate doesn't agree with the certificate then this is obviously an oversight on the part of the car manufacturer and the weight plate must be replaced without a change to the CoC and consequently without amending the details on the V5c. However, if the weight plate and the CoC concur but are both incorrect, then a new V5c must be issued, too.

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Yes, V5’s aren’t reliable - my A2 is quoted at 1390cc which the petrol ones are but mine is a diesel and 1422cc - it’s quite a common mistake.

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3 hours ago, Woodentop said:

Our last car was a VW Passat Estate Executive Style 140 BMT which had a towing weight from the plate of 1825Kg (correct.) We now have a VW Passat Estate 150 GT BMT which has a towing weight from the plate of 1825Kg but on the V5 it was 1800Kg. This error got me looking on the VW web site which showed the towing weight as 2000Kg!!

 

Yours is the same car as mine (if manual) the brochure does say 2000kg but my VIN plate works out to 2040kg!

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4 hours ago, Lutz said:

The DVLA will, or should, issue the respective V5c in accordance with the details shown on the Certificate of Conformity. If the weight plate doesn't agree with the certificate then this is obviously an oversight on the part of the car manufacturer and the weight plate must be replaced without a change to the CoC and consequently without amending the details on the V5c. However, if the weight plate and the CoC concur but are both incorrect, then a new V5c must be issued, too.

 

The DVLA just wanted my V5C returned with a headed letter from VW or a VW dealer confirming that the V5C was incorrect. The local dealer (another branch if the same company that supplied the car - which we think was a VW management car) supplied the letter which I sent to the DVLA and we got a correct V5C about two weeks later.

 

16 minutes ago, FrankBullet said:

 

Yours is the same car as mine (if manual) the brochure does say 2000kg but my VIN plate works out to 2040kg!

 

Can't be quite the same car Frank as mine has a gross train weight of 3965Kg and with a GVW of 2140Kg - with both of which the plate agrees - it gives a maximum towing weight of 1825Kg. Mine was built first quarter 2018 (first registered 29 Mar 2018) - what about yours?

 

VW can easily trace the build data from your vehicle VIN and will be able to tell you what it should be. Corporate CS is in Sheffield on 0800 083 3914 or if no joy try 0800 333 666. I have contacted them a couple of times over three Passats and have always found them very helpful.

 

 

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Just checked and it’s 2060kg - GVW of 2070kg and GTW of 4130kg.

 

It’s a 2015 (March registered) 2.0TDi 150 BMT manual GT Estate.

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As an aside to this - how many of you have actually been pulled in by the police or vosa or anyone else for that matter & been asked to put your car & van on a weighbridge? I know we all need to know what weights our cars are for matching etc, just curious as to whether the authorities do check as in all the years I was towing a big twin axle they never once gave me a second look even when i passed somewhere they were set up to weigh lorries etc. 

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