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Ause

has anyone had fitted the AL-KO ATC to an Adria Adora

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1 hour ago, CommanderDave said:

“If ATC is unnecessary why do Caravan insurance companies offer a substantial discount if it’s fitted?” 

 

Anyone care to answer that?

 

Neither of the major insurers I have been with have ever offered a discount for one being fitted.

Because of  my age and associated problems it is unlikely that I will be buying another 'van,but if I did I would have either the ATC or BPW ( as fitted to my Elddis)....I have found it a useful tool and it has never stopped dead on a main road!

 

geoff 

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The camping club says 15% discount with an ATC.

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1 hour ago, Grandpa Steve said:

 

I understand how ATC works and Mr Plodd's explanation details it clearly, my question was to Jiffy176 as myth is often quoted as fact.

I've read of a couple of posters who have claimed this has happened to them! I didn't just make it up, but can only believe what has been posted. End of the day it's and individual choice.

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Caravan Guard gave me a 15% discount at my last renewal a couple of weeks ago, and they certainly DID ask if my caravan had ATC along with did I have an ALKO wheel lock (another discount given) and an alarm.

 

Now if these devices are pointless additions again I would ask why do insurers offer such discounts? One thing is for certain, it’s not out of the goodness of their hearts is it! 

 

Andy

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Good for Caravan Guard Andy....problem ,the only one,I have with my present insurer is that they insist on me having Al-Ko hitch locks and wheel locks......as I have a BPW Chassis and the relevant BPW locks they are not counted!....have been back to Underwriters on this but nothing.

Will review this and  their ATC come July when renewal due.

 

geoff

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by shipbroker

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4 hours ago, Grandpa Steve said:
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I understand how ATC works and Mr Plodd's explanation details it clearly, my question was to Jiffy176 as myth is often quoted as fact. 

 

I would like to thank you all on all your opinions for and against ATC .  both side have made good point about ATC , Will be getting one fitted , ….. thanks again Alan

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2 hours ago, Ause said:

 

I would like to thank you all on all your opinions for and against ATC .  both side have made good point about ATC , Will be getting one fitted , ….. thanks again Alan

All the best with your new purchase and have a great time . Out of interest have you had a price for fitting or will the dealer fit for free to seal the deal?

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As a slight aside does any Adria caravan come with ATC. fitted as OEM equipment 
Or any other continental vans but fitted as after market upgrades.
  Sorry if I should have started a new thread just wondering ?

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All I can say is that in all the years I have caravanned, most have been before ATC existed and I have never experienced a snake, at the most a little sway from overtaking trucks and from white van men blasting past. I doubt any have been bad enough for ATC to activate.

Even though the Adria has a long body, it appears to react less to this anyway.

In any case there is no guarantee that ATC will get you out of all snaking situations, anymore than a seatbelt or airbag will prevent injury or death in all cases, it MAY help, but I am not keen to test any of them out. 

Suffice to say, all these and ATC  are good to have, just in the off chance, as is a parachute when flying, possibly, not all are currently compulsory though.

 

As for driving experience, I too have had a bike licence from my teens and big and fast bikes up until the last 12 months. I also had a class 1 goods licence from way back before 38 tonners and speed limiters came in. I also pulled heavy trailers under STGO classification and as with caravans, not had an incident apart from on bikes.  That is not to say any amount of experience or training is any guarantee either, but it may help sometimes.

 

There are probanly far more effective things that can be done to make our roads safer, periodic driving tests for one, but going further OT here and another can of worms.....

 

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Bpw ATC = IDC 

 

 

 

Dave

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37 minutes ago, weekender said:

As a slight aside does any Adria caravan come with ATC. fitted as OEM equipment 
Or any other continental vans but fitted as after market upgrades.
  Sorry if I should have started a new thread just wondering ?

 

In 2006 when we ordered for a 2007 Hymer build we could have purchased ATC as a factory fitted option.

However, with all the exchange factors and the dealer's margin it was an £900 option, at a time it was a £400 Al-Ko UK retro fit. Not surprisingly after getting the van we took a holiday starting  with dropping in at their factory for a prearranged appointment.

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1 hour ago, weekender said:

As a slight aside does any Adria caravan come with ATC. fitted as OEM equipment 
Or any other continental vans but fitted as after market upgrades.
  Sorry if I should have started a new thread just wondering ?

think you have to look round for the best deal for you. the way I feel about the ATC is it`s there when you need it .

 there ways some lorry and bus drivers think it fun to see a caravan snaking . we have all seen them on the motorways

all the best weekender 

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2 hours ago, weekender said:

As a slight aside does any Adria caravan come with ATC. fitted as OEM equipment 
Or any other continental vans but fitted as after market upgrades.
  Sorry if I should have started a new thread just wondering ?

Went to the show today and have the Adria brochure, no mention of ATC in the brochure or on the vans we looked at  so I think you are looking at a supplying dealer fit.

The show offer was a free motor mover.

Had a look a various European brands, not all were there and some did have ATC and  some didn't.

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Just renewed caravan insurance with CMC they do indeed give 15% discount if ATC fitted but had to ask, also told it must be fully operational all times when towing to meet T&C of insurance.
 So don't start journey unless fully operational otherwise van would not be covered, at least by CMC anyway, but as you have paid extra for safety and peace of mind you wouldn't anyway.
   If you didn't have one fitted you can start your trip knowing your van is covered do I put that down as a plus or minus ?

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32 minutes ago, weekender said:

Just renewed caravan insurance with CMC they do indeed give 15% discount if ATC fitted but had to ask, also told it must be fully operational all times when towing to meet T&C of insurance.
 So don't start journey unless fully operational otherwise van would not be covered, at least by CMC anyway, but as you have paid extra for safety and peace of mind you wouldn't anyway.
   If you didn't have one fitted you can start your trip knowing your van is covered do I put that down as a plus or minus ?

So what do you do if you are due to leave to catch the ferry for your annual two week holiday in Europe and on hitching up you cannot get an ATC fault to clear, miss the ferry and have a miserable start to the holiday or potential drive with only the third party insurance provided by the car?

 

Although unlikely issues like the above  are not unheard of for some reason or another. My point of the above is that I would be talking through this with the insurer before I commited as the system is not factory fit?

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On 18/02/2019 at 21:39, Mr Plodd said:

I am simply STAGGERED by the attitude of some that ATC is just a waste of space and money because if you have a “long A frame” and load your caravan correctly then it will never be needed because your caravan cannot ever get into a snake. Such naivety is somewhat troubling.

 

I have ATC fitted and I genuinely hope that it will NEVER be “needed in anger” But IF it ever is then I will be very grateful for it’s presence.

 

My final comment would be to ask those who say they serve no useful purpose......

 

“If ATC is unecessary why do Caravan insurance companies offer a substantial discount if it’s fitted?” 

 

Anyone care to answer that?

 

Andy

Andy,

I never said it was a Waste of space and money. I did say an Adria with a longer A frame will be more stable than a UK short A frame van.

There is NOTHING more safe than a well matched vehicle and trailer/caravan well loaded & well driven at a sensible speed. The ATC can ONLY work if your in trouble and snaking.,which cant happen if your all good in the first place. 

I have the maximum discount available so ATC will get me no further reduction. As an HGV driver I get the same discount for my licence/experience as adding ATC offers others.

So on your question , I don't think anyone has said its unnecessary, just that its not a requirement-therefore its a choice.

Its one of the things that the insurance industry rightly look for -as an owner who fits this devise is thinking safety and not a devil may care attitude which is the type of customer they prefer. IT will of course if called into service reduce the likelihood of an accident occurring or reduce the damage caused if one occurs.

 

Personally I have been involved in two really bad snaking trailers and both were badly loaded by me. Both were manageable at lower speeds and in both cases I got to quick due to hills and nearly lost it. Experience has taught me the hard way (no accident but notable damage to goods on the trailers and BOTH times it was an HGV driver who slowed other traffic to give me time to sort it all out and get my speed and snake under control). Neither were in a caravan but 3.5T plant trailers.

 

If ATC gives you confidence, great. For me I do not want to mask an issue- I want to know its not right and stop and adjust the load so I don't have an issue. Lesson learned just this side of the hard way and two new pairs of trousers!

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40 minutes ago, baddon said:

The ATC can ONLY work if your in trouble and snaking.,which cant happen if your all good in the first place. 

 

That a snake can't occur if the unit is well matched, well loaded, driven well and at a sensible speed, is a false assertion.

Unless, you rule out taking emergency accident avoidance action, that involves even a quite modest swerve. If to avoid a serious incident you swerve, things will go really wrong, and the ATC will be a significant help in taming  what follows it. 

 

40 minutes ago, baddon said:

For me I do not want to mask an issue- I want to know its not right and stop and adjust the load so I don't have an issue.

 

ATC does not "mask an issue".  If the unit is at all normally unstable for any of your quoted reasons,  or others, the ATC will notice it and let you know, more probably earlier than you could sense it. After all it directly senses what the van starts to do, not as you, have to wait till the towing vehicle reacts to it.  Therefore, it does just the opposite, you fear it would.

 

 

Edited by JTQ
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was not thinking about an evasive swerve. In all my 2 decades towing I have never had to make one so I take your point.

On your second point I accept your right. Never having had it I cant access how it works or alerts driver.

 

I assume its like anti lock breaks, they are there and unobtrusive unless they are working and flashing away ( I know with them you can feel the peddle vibrating)

I have had anti lock breaks come in BEFORE the trailer breaks had engaged and the jeep & myself was pushed through a red lighted junction buy the heavy trailer as the road was very greasy (just outside the city tip, so many bin lorries a day causing a build up of muck that when wet for first time in weeks is just a treat to drive on). I now know when this happens to take of the foot and bury it back to the floor quickly so the Anti lock does not kick in before the trailer breaks. Damn hard to do but only way to get the breaks working for you.

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None so blind as those who will not see.

 

Andy

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11 hours ago, baddon said:

was not thinking about an evasive swerve. In all my 2 decades towing I have never had to make one so I take your point.

On your second point I accept your right. Never having had it I cant access how it works or alerts driver.

 

I assume its like anti lock breaks, they are there and unobtrusive unless they are working and flashing away ( I know with them you can feel the peddle vibrating)

I have had anti lock breaks come in BEFORE the trailer breaks had engaged and the jeep & myself was pushed through a red lighted junction buy the heavy trailer as the road was very greasy (just outside the city tip, so many bin lorries a day causing a build up of muck that when wet for first time in weeks is just a treat to drive on). I now know when this happens to take of the foot and bury it back to the floor quickly so the Anti lock does not kick in before the trailer breaks. Damn hard to do but only way to get the breaks working for you.

 

Trailer brakes should act almost instantaneously as soon as the car brakes are applied, regardless of ABS deploying on the towing vehicle. If they don't, there's something wrong with them.

 

If the trailer pushed the car that was already braking across a junction despite its brakes working as they should, then the brakes must have locked up its wheels and the trailer must have been skidding on what was, by your own admission, a very greasy road.

 

Edited by Lutz

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13 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

None so blind as those who will not see.

 

Andy

 

I am not so sure, I believe there are those who genuinely think that if the fundamentals of having a stable unit, driving carefully and a lifetime so far without incident, is all that is required to continue being safe.

 

Unfortunately, it is not that simple, despite these fundamental requirements being vital. 

 

A towed unit operates close to instability relying on nothing provoking it to go wrong.

That through not fault of the user can occur, and ATC can greatly reduce the consequences if it ever does.

 

Like you, I believe as we now have the technology its adoption should be mandated, if not just for the buyers sake, for those others on the road. There are evidently those buying into this hobby that don't genuinely understand the issues, and how things can be safer, even those with years of towing under their belts.

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Over the years cars have acquired a whole host of safety features, many of which started off either as options or as features found only on certain high spec cars. Seatbelts, ABS, airbags, side impact protection bars, anti burst door catches etc. etc. Most of these went on to become either mandatory or simply the recognised way of meeting testing standards.

In many cases these features sit in the car from production line to scrapyard without ever actually being used, airbags and crumple zones to name but two. If they are ever needed their use becomes apparent and strictly "single use", their effect is clear and has been demonstrated in crash tests.

Others, such as ABS, ESP,  etc. can be used many times over and it is impossible to say with any certainty, exactly what would have happened under any given circumstances without them.

ATC and stabilisers fall into the latter category.

Yes it works but it is impossible to do any more than guess at how many incidents it has either prevented or lessened.

 

 

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1 hour ago, JTQ said:

I am not so sure, I believe there are those who genuinely think that if the fundamentals of having a stable unit, driving carefully and a lifetime so far without incident, is all that is required to continue being safe.

 

  Have to admit I probably come  partly in this description although wouldn’t say it’s all that’s required.

1 hour ago, JTQ said:

Like you, I believe as we now have the technology its adoption should be mandated, if not just for the buyers sake, for those others on the road.

 

1 hour ago, JTQ said:

 

·           Electronic Stability Control with Multiple Collision Brake. Trailer Stabilization.  Front Assist (Radar Sensor Controlled Distance Monitoring System. City Emergency Braking System and Pedestrian Monitoring System. Driver Alert System. ABS (Anti-Lock Braking System), with Brake Assist System. And a whole host of other safety systems that will make everyone safer should they be mandatory on all vehicles? no one  should drive without any of the above.

If everyone could afford them  there is no argument, personally I would love equipment that has everything but on my pension that is not going to happen.

    ATC has to be positive thing but I would not pay extra for it.

But after renewing my CMC insurance and the conversation about ATC don’t think I would ask for the discount.

   as only tow 5k - 8k a year out of my total i will endeavor to stay safe for all road users.     

Edited by weekender
repeat

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ATC costs about £450 from new, on a £20k caravan that’s 2.25% of the cost, is that expensive for a proven safety measure? 

 

I wonder how many owners who have had a caravan, not fitted with ATC, turn over as the result of a snake, would happily have parted with £450 to forego the experience? I certainly came across a few at the roadside whilst viewing their destroyed caravans contents spread along many metres of verge/carriageway hundreds of miles from home.

 

What has become abundantly clear is that some people consider themselves SO clever, experienced, and experts on all things to do with the length of A frames, loading, tyre pressures and all other factors in respect of towing, that they are 100% convinced that they will never ever run the risk of having a caravan snake on them, and THATS the reason why it should be a compulsory  fit on all new caravans. 

 

“Pride always comes before a fall” 

 

I think I will leave at that as it is clear the flat earth society still holds considerable sway amongst some, the trouble is they are out there when I am driving around!

 

Andy

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Perhaps some would propose this rather than ATC

 

Tullock's spike

The name "Tullock's spike" refers to a thought experiment in which Tullock suggested that if governments were serious about making motorists drive more safely, they should mandate that a sharp spike be installed in the center of each car's steering wheel, to increase the probability that an accident would be fatal to the driver. Tullock's idea was that the normal process of risk compensation would then lead to safer driving by the affected drivers.

 

I think I will stick to seatbelts and ATC.   

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