logiclee Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, CommanderDave said: London clean air zone came in ten years ago in 2008 I think we all knew what was happening to the diesel and it's days were numbered ? We also read a number of reports that the diesel was not going to last due to Euro emission standards . Car manufacturers should of started to change course ? Dave At that time 2008 all ULEZ were aimed at removing older more polluting vehicles. There was no effect on diesel sales. Manufactures continued to market "Clean" diesel engines. Then in 2015 the VW scandal happened and sent a shockwave through the industry. Independent tests proved that nearly all Euro 5 and Euro 6 diesels emitted many more times NOx on the road compared to lab tests. Most manufacturers had found legal ways to "Cheat" the tests. As momentum built through 2016 Governments around the world started to introduce further measures, in the EU we have had WLTP testing introduced, more ULEZ and city bans. Through 2016/17 the bad press continued and through 2017/18 diesel sales have collapsed. That's the time line that manufacturers have worked to. It was the fallout from VW's dieselgate that has stung JLR. Although VAG have also been hit hard they do have ranges of smaller TSi petrols, hybrid and electric so have been somewhat cushioned. JLR's range is mainly big diesel cars, exactly what the public is turning away from. Edited February 16, 2019 by logiclee Quote Yeti 2.0TDi EU6 150 DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Fabia TSi DSG, Swift Challenger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 2 hours ago, FrankBullet said: nothing to do with the specific demonisation of diesel which was the point I’m responding to. You seem to have over looked the information in the links I posted. The titles in the url’s from Buyacar, Auto Express and Motorway specifically call out the very issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durbanite Posted February 16, 2019 Author Share Posted February 16, 2019 It seems that I may have missed off a nought when stating the price of the Escort Cosworth. We bought our 2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland Summit last year in October. The same year and model Jeep is now over a £1000 more expensive on Autotrader! I wonder why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndersG Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 Profit or loss can be pretty much what you want it to be. The headline loss is due to a write down and that's not an actual expense, no money left the company due to the write down. They have a positive cash flow from operations and an EBITDA margin of 7.3%. I don't know what's common in the car industry but does not sound to shabby to me. Sales Q3 FY 19 vs Q3 FY 1818 shows an increase in North America, Europe and the UK. The only reason sales are down is due to a very steep drop in China. I doubt that has much to do with a diesel scare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankBullet Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Grandpa Steve said: You seem to have over looked the information in the links I posted. The titles in the url’s from Buyacar, Auto Express and Motorway specifically call out the very issue. No, I read the articles and worked through the information behind them having got past the sensationalist headlines. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durbanite Posted February 16, 2019 Author Share Posted February 16, 2019 If we all switched to petrol vehicles then surely pollution from those will increase taking us back to the original problem and then they will be penalised the same way as current diesel vehicles? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWanderingLancastrian Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 13 minutes ago, Durbanite said: If we all switched to petrol vehicles then surely pollution from those will increase taking us back to the original problem and then they will be penalised the same way as current diesel vehicles? Hi Durbanite - and the wheel rolls on Quote Life in general can be a journey of chance with some winners and sadly some losers. Your outfit can never be left to chance. A short-while carrying out essential checks can ensure a long-time of happy & safe caravanning for all concerned. Ignorance can often be bliss but is certainly not an excuse and when continually disregarded they can be totally disastrous for oneself and the innocent parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logiclee Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Durbanite said: If we all switched to petrol vehicles then surely pollution from those will increase taking us back to the original problem and then they will be penalised the same way as current diesel vehicles? The Government do not want us to swap our diesels for a same size petrol. What dealers are seeing is people swapping their 2.0TDi 150PS Golf for a 1.4 TSi 150PS Golf or swap their 1.6TDi 115PS Focus for a 1.0 Ecoboost 125PS Focus. So no dramatic increase in C02, the vast majority don't have to consider towing. That accounts for around half the shift according to 2018 sale figures. The rest is people swapping to hybrid or EV Edited February 16, 2019 by logiclee 1 Quote Yeti 2.0TDi EU6 150 DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Fabia TSi DSG, Swift Challenger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logiclee Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, AndersG said: The only reason sales are down is due to a very steep drop in China. I doubt that has much to do with a diesel scare. China has had a slow down but not a crash. The Chinese love premium and love the latest technology. But there was a big push in late 2017 by the Chinese towards hybrid and EV. The Chinese are no longer classing diesel as the latest tech. BMW has seen a sales increase in China but they are pushing their Hybrid and EV models. Sales of Petrol Hybrid and EV rose 55% in China comparing September 2017 to September 2018. Sales of big diesels have slumped. Even China is not unaware of Dieselgate and the measures the Chinese Government are bringing in especially in Beijing are more restrictive than many EU countries. There are even restrictions on Diesel Lorry's with some truck operators switching to LNG. Edited February 16, 2019 by logiclee Quote Yeti 2.0TDi EU6 150 DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Fabia TSi DSG, Swift Challenger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macafee2 Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 On 15/02/2019 at 15:09, GaryB1969 said: It depends who you listen to! I did read a while ago (but cannot for the life of me find it now) that Loughborough University had developed a filter that really cleaned up diesel vehicle emissions, but I suppose that won't "fit" with the Witch-hunt against diesels. I'm all for cleaning up urban pollution but there are so many differing opinions and false facts out there that it's difficult to make an informed decision. My current car is diesel and the next one will be. was it Bosch? macafee2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logiclee Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, macafee2 said: was it Bosch? macafee2 The ACCT system that Loughborough Uni have developed is no magic fix all cheap solution. As WLTP emissions limits reduce over the next decade we'll see diesels use ever more complex emission control with bigger SCR and increased adblue usage. Currently the SCR system has to reach around 250 degrees to make it efficient. What the ACCT system does is lower that threshold significantly meaning SCR can be used earlier in the warm up cycle. The system was developed for HGV's as due to their restrictive NOx limits their reliance on SCR and adblue is significantly higher than a passenger car. Although the tech can be added to cars manufacturers will not add the extra expense, weight and technology until they need it to pass WLTP. Manufacturers could eliminate NOx from diesel engines tomorrow, but that would mean increased weight, increased costs, reduced economy and much increased consumption of adblue. This would make diesel uncompetative against other technology which is why manufacturers lobbied for phased in limits for WLTP. There's little incentive for manufacturers to spend large amounts to develop new tech for diesel in passenger cars, the market has collapsed and most markets have total bans in place within a couple of decades. Some manufacturers have already stated their intentions going forward like Volvo. Others you only have to look at their budgets. VAG has $8 Billion to develop diesel to meet WLTP over the next 10 years. But $48 Billion for battery tech, $35 Billion on the MEB electric platform and an undisclosed amount to modify 16 manufacturing facilities to move to hybrid/EV Edited February 17, 2019 by logiclee Quote Yeti 2.0TDi EU6 150 DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Fabia TSi DSG, Swift Challenger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logiclee Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) 51 minutes ago, logiclee said: Others you only have to look at their budgets. VAG has $8 Billion to develop diesel to meet WLTP over the next 10 years. Sorry that's $1 B not $8 B and a good proportion of that has already been used for the NEDC to WLTP changeover. Edited February 17, 2019 by logiclee Quote Yeti 2.0TDi EU6 150 DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Fabia TSi DSG, Swift Challenger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durbanite Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share Posted February 17, 2019 The shame about diesel and other vehicles being penalised is that a lot of unemployment is being created and this is a bigger problem than any pollution as probably more people die from suicide, being homeless and hungry than from fumes from cars! I am all for a cleaner atmosphere but lets take it into perspective and find the right balance. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svimes Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 21 minutes ago, Durbanite said: The shame about diesel and other vehicles being penalised is that a lot of unemployment is being created and this is a bigger problem than any pollution as probably more people die from suicide, being homeless and hungry than from fumes from cars! I am all for a cleaner atmosphere but lets take it into perspective and find the right balance. How is unemployment being created? We still need cars and other forms of transport How many people will die from suicide (due to this unemployment) versus air pollution? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logiclee Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, svimes said: How is unemployment being created? We still need cars and other forms of transport I think he may have been talking locally. JLR have announced redundancies because they have been too slow to read or react to the market. Their market share in China has fallen while other manufacturers like BMW with a wider premium hybrid and EV range have increased market share. That's a failure of JLR and Tata though. Quote Yeti 2.0TDi EU6 150 DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Fabia TSi DSG, Swift Challenger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, logiclee said: I think he may have been talking locally. JLR have announced redundancies because they have been too slow to read or react to the market. Their market share in China has fallen That's a failure of JLR and Tata though. Those being made redundant are agency employees contracted to deliver the next generation of Evoke and future EV vehicle. their job is done they are now surplus to requirement. other redundancy announced is as a result of the production of Discovery moving to Slovakia's new plant. Edited February 17, 2019 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durbanite Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share Posted February 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, oldboy said: Those being made redundant are agency employees contracted to deliver the next generation of Evoke and future EV vehicle. their job is done they are now surplus to requirement. other redundancy announced is as a result of the production of Discovery moving to Slovakia's new plant. Either way people are still becoming unemployed. 38 minutes ago, svimes said: How is unemployment being created? We still need cars and other forms of transport How many people will die from suicide (due to this unemployment) versus air pollution? So people do not die from hunger? People are already stealing from supermarkets because of the delay with getting any benefits. Also some people are driven to suicide when they become unemployed and one death is one too many! How many deaths can definitely without any shadow of doubt be directly linked to pollution from vehicles instead of being assumed to be linked to pollution from vehicles and not other sources of pollution? It is easier to target a motorist than a polluting company employing hundreds of people as that company may close down and create a lot of unemployment! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svimes Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, Durbanite said: Either way people are still becoming unemployed. So people do not die from hunger? People are already stealing from supermarkets because of the delay with getting any benefits. Also some people are driven to suicide when they become unemployed and one death is one too many! How many deaths can definitely without any shadow of doubt be directly linked to pollution from vehicles instead of being assumed to be linked to pollution from vehicles and not other sources of pollution? It is easier to target a motorist than a polluting company employing hundreds of people as that company may close down and create a lot of unemployment! Yes, of course people die from hunger. Why would you think not? There have been a lot of studies into the effects of vehicle pollution. I wondered if you had looked at these and compared them to a predicted spike in death rates due to rising unemployment (even harder to find concrete stats for, if have thought). I'm guessing not. Moving on, it's actually comparatively easy to prosecute a single company that is breaking regulations. It happens a lot and usually the company will adapt and comply. That's point source pollution. Dealing with diffuse source pollution, like multiple moving vehicles or overuse of fertilizer in agriculture is actually much harder to prosecute. Hence measures tend to be blanket regulations or restrictions rather than targeting a particular vehicle or farmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankBullet Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Durbanite said: The shame about diesel and other vehicles being penalised is that a lot of unemployment is being created and this is a bigger problem than any pollution as probably more people die from suicide, being homeless and hungry than from fumes from cars! I am all for a cleaner atmosphere but lets take it into perspective and find the right balance. People still need transport, many growth industries are created too and growth in existing sectors - however if you sell bloated badly made SUV’s relying on a single market then you are at the whim of that market if it shrinks. It’s not as simple as blaming the furore over diesels. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durbanite Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share Posted February 17, 2019 51 minutes ago, FrankBullet said: People still need transport, many growth industries are created too and growth in existing sectors - however if you sell bloated badly made SUV’s relying on a single market then you are at the whim of that market if it shrinks. It’s not as simple as blaming the furore over diesels. There are many well made trucks, trains, ships, boats, tractors, SUVs plus also diesel cars etc however the market for diesel cars has shrunk due to attacks by various organisations on the owners of diesel cars. BTW can you name any of these these bloated badly made SUVs as I am sure that they have to comply with Euro 6 or 7 requirements? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankBullet Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Durbanite said: BTW can you name any of these these bloated badly made SUVs as I am sure that they have to comply with Euro 6 or 7 requirements? Bloated badly made SUV’s? The JLR product range fits the bill. Who said anything about them not complying with EU6 (EU7 hasn’t landed yet). Edited February 17, 2019 by FrankBullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dobloseven Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Can't help thinking JLR have missed the trend for smaller SUVs.A sub Evoque sized vehicle perhaps with a 1.5 petrol engine,3 cylinder Ingenium possibly,Evoque Sport maybe,would surely be a good thing.Probably have to use a shared platform,perhaps no need for 4wd.Larger petrol and diesel engines perhaps with 4wd could be added if needed.Taking it a stage further,the same platform could be used for a more rugged lifestyle machine with Defender styling cues,Defender Sport perhaps,but probably better left till the new Defender sees the light of day.These vehicles needn't be cheap,probably mostly sold on PCPs so a good chance to sell something else when they return after a few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logiclee Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Durbanite said: BTW can you name any of these these bloated badly made SUVs as I am sure that they have to comply with Euro 6 The same new Euro 6 WLTP test that allow manufacturers to exceed the diesel NOx limit that they were supposed to be achieving in 2014 by a massive 110%. And on top of that there are temperature related exemptions for warm up and cold ambient temperatures. New diesels comply with the new tests but they have been given a 2.1 conformity factor to allow them time to get clean or switch to other forms of energy. This drops to 50% above by late 2020 but it will be around 2025 until we get Euro 7 and manufacturers will need to reach the NOx limits they were supposed to be achieving in 2014 The Chinese really have done a full U turn on motoring, industry and power generation. They wan't to rid their city's of the smog and poor air quality that has been present the last few decades. I'm by no way anti JLR or anti diesel. I currently have two diesels and currently looking to replace my motorway mile muncher with a 3.0D Jag XF. But the realities of diesel tech, public opinion and markets world wide are as they are. What it does mean is currently there are good deals on used diesel cars. But not good for manufacturers of primarily big diesel engined cars. Would I buy a new diesel? No, lease yes but buy no. I think we have not seen the end to the market shift. Edited February 17, 2019 by logiclee Quote Yeti 2.0TDi EU6 150 DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Fabia TSi DSG, Swift Challenger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durbanite Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share Posted February 17, 2019 1 hour ago, FrankBullet said: Bloated badly made SUV’s? The JLR product range fits the bill. Can't argue with you on that point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Durbanite said: Can't argue with you on that point! It was that badly made, here at Halewood they had to go on 24 hours production employing an extra 200 temporary agency employee to meet worldwide demand. Sadly because of the slowdown, the 200 agency employee has to be laid off till the production of Evoke 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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