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Hi All,

 

Is there a way to find what size One Shot nut i need on an Adria Adora 532UK ? It has a 185 x 14 - 8 Ply tyre/wheel and i need to take the wheel off to check the shoes but would rather get the one shot nuts ready (before i take it off) so that i know i've got them but can't see how to tell which of the 2 optional sizes i will need ?

The caravan is in storage so it just saves me going there twice.

 

Thanks

Edited by AndreatheAdria

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Buy one of each, use the one that fits, ebay the other, if you can be bothered.

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Remember that you will also need the correct sized socket and torque wrench to tighten the nut.

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2 hours ago, Dunhamkid said:

 and torque wrench to tighten the nut.

 

One this big. .;)

P1020550.JPG

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If you are having trouble getting a replacement nut you could always try my method:

Obtain some locktite thread-lock & a suitable socket tool & breaker bar,  mark the position of the nut before removing. On re-assembly apply a small amount of locktite (3 drops spaced around the thread) tighten the nut up to the same, or very slightly past, the original mark.  

This will doubtless horrify those who don't know any better than to blindly believe the 'one-shot' mantra is God's will (but it's mainly intended to be an idiot-proof rule), however it's perfectly safe if done correctly.   I don't recommend doing this more than once, though, as the nut threads will have deformed slightly each time.

 

If you don't have the necessary ability to do as suggested then a very expensive (& accurate!) torque wrench will be essential. I would still recommend using the locktite, for extra safety, no matter which method you choose.

 

I've used the above method on several 'vans over the years (when I used to do my own servicing) even though I have all the necessary tools. A 350 Ft Lb (max.) torque wrench was used to re-tighten which is why I know that the used nut(s) ended up in the same position each time.

I suspect some form of locktite is used initially & it's certainly  a very reliable engineering solution for stopping things coming loose: to the point where I'm tempted to use it on the wheel bolts, if I ever have one come loose that is.

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If a wheel bearing got hot it will just melt the loctite . As a engineer it was common practice to use loctite on components to hold while machining then just warm them up to get them apart .

 

I would not use it on a bearing that could melt the loctite and unscrew the nut and loose a hub and wheel . Also on the initial tightening the thread is stretched and under tension and there is no way of knowing if it is tightened to the required torque . Have an accident and if found your caravan is unroadworthy after investigation you can end up in a lot of problems if any fatalities .

 

I would recommend using the proper nuts and spending a few quid and using a torque wrench .

 

 

Dave

 

 

Edited by CommanderDave

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Thanks all, at the cost then yes, didn't think of just buying both sizes.

 

Thanks

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1 hour ago, micktheshed said:

I suspect some form of locktite is used initially

Then you suspect wrongly !!

No locktite or any other locking compound is used ever !!!

 

Al-Ko one shot nuts are just that, ONE shot and that's it as the nut is deformed in manufacture to a certain tolerance and as the nut is tightened it takes out the ovoid shape and provides the locking tension required.

 

Knott hub nuts can be used more than once, but no more than three times.

 

What you do to your own van is your concern but it is irresponsible to suggest others take your method which is completely wrong as far as Al-Ko hub nuts are concerned.

Edited by Brecon
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18 hours ago, Brecon said:

Then you suspect wrongly !!

No locktite or any other locking compound is used ever !!!

 

Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what the orange coloured deposit on the threads is then? Note! this is a serious enquiry, (I'm not trying to wind you up).
During the later half of my life-time working in engineering, there were grades of locktite specifically to resist heat, are these no longer available?
As regards the deforming of the nut's thread I quite specifically stated that this occurs & hence the use of thread lock, also not recommending more than one re-use. I've heard of more than one occurrence of a new nut coming off so the built-in ovoid distortion of the thread is  no %100 guarantee of retention on it's own.   I never had this happen on any of mine!

 

The cost of purchasing (or hiring if that's even  possible) a suitable torque wrench to do just one or two nuts would be prohibitive anyway. It's a specialized piece of kit. The readily available 'click' type is unlikely to be of high enough rating & even less likely to be of the required accuracy, even though these are frequently used to do the job. The one I have (from over 20 years ago!) cost two weeks wages even then, & is basically a 4ft torsion bar mechanism connected to a dial gauge reading up to 350 Ft. Lbs & the accuracy is almost beyond belief.   As I recall the torque needed on the nut is almost this amount, can't remember the exact figure but it's very high.

 

Having carried out extensive tests about 16 years ago on a similar set-up to a wheel hub (but transmitting much more torque) I found the only %100 solution was to use an aircraft spec. self-locking nut costing 5 x the price, but at least it was reusable. The one-shot nut is just the cheapest solution rather than eg. the original pinned type. Lets not pretend that it's the best available.

 

As to whether anyone cares to use my method is up to them, however, it does require a disciplined approach &  some engineering nounce.

 

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1 hour ago, micktheshed said:

Perhaps you can enlighten me as to what the orange coloured deposit on the threads is then? Note! this is a serious enquiry, (I'm not trying to wind you up).

Yes I can enlighten you.

That orange deposit is a marking compound which is applied after the hub nut has been torqued to the correct setting and acts as a tell tale should the nut move as it cracks at the stub axle to hub nut joint.

It is not a locking compound.

 

1 hour ago, micktheshed said:

I've heard of more than one occurrence of a new nut coming off so the built-in ovoid distortion of the thread is  no %100 guarantee of retention on it's own.

I know of quite a lot of hub nuts that have come off, but the reason behind that is there is a big market in cheap Chinese aftermarket hub nuts that bend, twist and crack when a torque wrench is applied to them, but they are cheap and used by cheapskate service centres, however, they are easily identified as they are not stamped with the Al-Ko mark and just have a reference number instead.

 

I have never known a correctly torqued Al-KO hub nut fail.

 

 

1 hour ago, micktheshed said:

The one-shot nut is just the cheapest solution rather than eg. the original pinned type. Lets not pretend that it's the best available.

I could not agree more, in my personal view they are a pain in the rear. (and a nice little earner for those workshops cheeky enough to charge you for them when doing a service) 
I much prefer the old style castellated nut and split pin type, but as most things, makers have tried to remove the need for users to have any knowledge of correct setting of this type of system.

The other advantage of the old style system is that you did not need a huge torque wrench to do the job, just an ordinary socket set had all the bits you needed.

Edited by Brecon
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Throughout this topic one important point has not been mentioned.    A small wipe of grease is applied to the stub axle before the new nut is tightened.     Lubrication is bound to change the torque position.   Surplus grease is washed away before the marker is added.

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What torque do the one shot nuts need tightening to ?

 

Machine Mart do a 360 Nm digital torque wrench to use with a breaker bar which at £43 is not too expensive https://www. machinemart. co. uk/p/040215238/

 

I have used one, it works but is not as good as one that clicks/breaks at the set value but is cost effective for something that is not used much.

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15 minutes ago, Paul1957 said:

What torque do the one shot nuts need tightening to.  

4

 

290 + or - 10 Nm

 

That looks a useful tool - if it's accurate!

Edited by Jaydug
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21 hours ago, Brecon said:

Yes I can enlighten you.

That orange deposit is a marking compound which is applied after the hub nut has been torqued to the correct setting and acts as a tell tale should the nut move as it cracks at the stub axle to hub nut joint.

It is not a locking compound.

 

I know of quite a lot of hub nuts that have come off, but the reason behind that is there is a big market in cheap Chinese aftermarket hub nuts that bend, twist and crack when a torque wrench is applied to them, but they are cheap and used by cheapskate service centres, however, they are easily identified as they are not stamped with the Al-Ko mark and just have a reference number instead.

I have never known a correctly torqued Al-KO hub nut fail.

 

 

I could not agree more, in my personal view they are a pain in the rear. (and a nice little earner for those workshops cheeky enough to charge you for them when doing a service) 
I much prefer the old style castellated nut and split pin type, but as most things, makers have tried to remove the need for users to have any knowledge of correct setting of this type of system.

The other advantage of the old style system is that you did not need a huge torque wrench to do the job, just an ordinary socket set had all the bits you needed.

1, thanks for the info re: orange deposit', I've always wondered.

2, & people still can't understand why I prefer to do the job myself? I've some found dealer's staff to be surprisingly (frighteningly?) lacking in basic know-how.

3, nice to know I'm not the only one who thinks so.

4, I've managed to insert a 'photo of my 3/4" drive torque wrench (can't get it all in without being too far away LOL. (Also, can't get over the fact that I've managed it LOL).

5, 'Paul 1957': that looks a very useful piece of equipment (pity they are shy on accuracy details!). Also max torque with only1/2" drive is a bit small for the torque being used, as the necessary socket is 3/4" or 1" square. I managed to twist off a 1/2" bar doing my first Al-Co nut!

torque wrench.jpg

7 hours ago, Jaydug said:

Throughout this topic one important point has not been mentioned.    A small wipe of grease is applied to the stub axle before the new nut is tightened.     Lubrication is bound to change the torque position.   Surplus grease is washed away before the marker is added.

 Since the Al-Co nut relies on friction (mainly from the ovoid threads)I'm amazed that grease, of any sort, is used. I presume it has to be of a very particular spec. otherwise the torque would vary considerably. , so I would be very interested to know the details.

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14 hours ago, micktheshed said:

Since the Al-Co nut relies on friction (mainly from the ovoid threads)I'm amazed that grease, of any sort, is used. I presume it has to be of a very particular spec. otherwise the torque would vary considerably. , so I would be very interested to know the details.

1

According to Alko it's their own 'special' mineral grease.    What's special about it, I haven't a clue.    Last time I needed it, I used a tiny bit of Vaseline.

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Casalated nuts and split pins can be used if the bearings are taper bearings but as the bearings are straight they use a one shot but that can be tightened to 290 nm .

 

I use a Britool snap torque wrench to tighten mine .

 

 

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave

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3 hours ago, CommanderDave said:

Casalated nuts and split pins can be used if the bearings are taper bearings but as the bearings are straight they use a one shot but that can be tightened to 290 nm .

 

I use a Britool snap torque wrench to tighten mine .

 

 

Dave

 

Why can't a castellated nut be torqued to 290Nm and pinned?  The BPW 27mm self locking (one shot) nut is castellated and requires 330Nm torque.

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28 minutes ago, beejay said:

 

Why can't a castellated nut be torqued to 290Nm and pinned?  The BPW 27mm self locking (one shot) nut is castellated and requires 330Nm torque.

It depends on how critical the torque setting is, a castellated nut, once torqued up, has to be backed off or further tightened until a notch lines up with the hole.

Not to mention that a castellated nut costs more to make than the one shot nut and requires an additional process drilling the hole in the  stub axle.  

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1 hour ago, Stevan said:

It depends on how critical the torque setting is, a castellated nut, once torqued up, has to be backed off or further tightened until a notch lines up with the hole.

Not to mention that a castellated nut costs more to make than the one shot nut and requires an additional process drilling the hole in the  stub axle.  

'a castellated nut costs more to make than the one shot nut', its all about initial build cost. ........ say no more. ....

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4 hours ago, beejay said:

 

Why can't a castellated nut be torqued to 290Nm and pinned?  The BPW 27mm self locking (one shot) nut is castellated and requires 330Nm torque.

 

On B&B and early Alko stub axles where castellated nuts were used, the bearings were tapered and required a carefully measured amount of load.    They could also be dismantled, cleaned and repacked.    If tapered bearings were torqued to 290Nm it's doubtful if they would turn.     Certainly, straight sealed-for-life bearings can be held with castellated nuts and 'D' clips.   Many car front wheel bearings are.

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All this bother to save the cost of putting a hub with a removable drum and making extra profit on overpriced nuts . . . . I've never had a car where I had to remove the whole hub to get at the brakes, . . 1930's technology

 

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4 minutes ago, Disco Kid said:

All this bother to save the cost of putting a hub with a removable drum and making extra profit on overpriced nuts . . . . I've never had a car where I had to remove the whole hub to get at the brakes, . . 1930's technology

 

Personally I suspect this lightweight combined hub and brake drum flexing for being the cause of wheel detachments as well!

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On 08/02/2019 at 16:53, micktheshed said:

 

5, 'Paul 1957': that looks a very useful piece of equipment (pity they are shy on accuracy details!). Also max torque with only1/2" drive is a bit small for the torque being used, as the necessary socket is 3/4" or 1" square. I managed to twist off a 1/2" bar doing my first Al-Co nut!

 

The Machine Mart digital torque adaptor comes with a calibration certificate and from this it is very accurate, tested at 72, 216 and 360 Nm and at each gives readings at most 0. 6 Nm out using test equipment to ISO 6789:2003. I used it to tighten hub nuts to 300 Nm and nothing broke or bent with all tools being 1/2" drive.

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21 hours ago, Jaydug said:

 

On B&B and early Alko stub axles where castellated nuts were used, the bearings were tapered and required a carefully measured amount of load.    They could also be dismantled, cleaned and repacked.    If tapered bearings were torqued to 290Nm it's doubtful if they would turn.     Certainly, straight sealed-for-life bearings can be held with castellated nuts and 'D' clips.   Many car front wheel bearings are.

 

'Tighten the nut until the wheel starts to bind then back off one slot' for an adjustable taper bearing is hardly a carefully measured load and, of course, it can't be tightened to high torque settings.

 

It's whether a compact bearing can use a castellated nut instead of a 'one shot' nut. What torque setting does a car wheel bearing require?

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15 minutes ago, beejay said:

 

' What torque setting does a car wheel bearing require?

 

 

Last one I did was a rear hub on a Peugeot which was 185Nm and secured with the outer rim of the nut being peened into a groove in the shaft.

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