Insurance and remapped car

[Mr Plodd]

2 minutes ago, lukijb said:

I fitted MAD rear suspension spring assisters on my VW Touran as the towbar when fitted, is on the minimum  distance from the ground and the  caravan tended to ride nose down.   Fitting the MAD springs completely changed the ride height  and improved the general towing, particularly on the motorway.

Would this be classed as a modification and  should i be informing my insurance company even though it make the vehicle more stable? 

 

Its a modification from standard so without a doubt YES you should notify them (I certainly would) 

 

It almost certainly won’t make any difference to your premium but by notifying them you are complying with their terms and conditions.

 

Andy

Edited December 15, 2018 by Mr Plodd

[Ern]

Its about the same as trying to diddle any other company - you may win or you may lose. Just assume that the insurance company is honest! You never know you're luck.

If you notify the insurer and the mod' doesn't affect the premium, then you have lost nothing. If you didn't notify them and it would have affected the premium if you had, then you risk a problem should you make a claim and your undeclared mod' is discovered.  

 

[Crannoghome]

I have a factory-fitted towbar and when declaring it to my insurance company (LV=), they said didn't need to know because it was factory-fitted.   Had I had it retrofitted after it had been delivered, then they said they would need to know and I would have to declare that it had been fitted by a "professional".

[Mr Plodd]

4 minutes ago, Ern said:

Its about the same as trying to diddle any other company - you may win or you may lose. Just assume that the insurance company is honest! You never know you're luck.

If you notify the insurer and the mod' doesn't affect the premium, then you have lost nothing. If you didn't notify them and it would have affected the premium if you had, then you risk a problem should you make a claim and your undeclared mod' is discovered.  

 

 

My attitude is “If in doubt tell ‘em” 

 

Andy

Edited December 15, 2018 by Mr Plodd

[Black Grouse]

4 hours ago, Ern said:

If you remap an engine to bump the power up from 150 to 180bhp the characteristics change considerably.

 

Of course the characteristics change - but the requirement to notify DVLA doesn't - it would need to be fully Type Approved.

[robloasby]

And in case you think they may not check these things. ..

 

When my renewal came due earlier this year, I went on one of the comparison sites and entered my information. It asked for any mods, so I selected from the drop down list that it had a towbar.

 

I then went onto another comparison site, which didn’t give an option to say that the car had a towbar, and bought my insurance through that.

 

Within 24 hours, I had an email from the new company asking why I hadn’t said I had a towbar! It was easily added to their record, with no effect on premium, though.

[jetA1]

2 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

Its a modification from standard so without a doubt YES you should notify them (I certainly would) 

 

It almost certainly won’t make any difference to your premium but by notifying them you are complying with their terms and conditions.

 

Andy

 

 

I'm totally on board with informing the insurance company but I understand why people hesitate.   When you call and are dealt with by an uninformed numpty in a call centre who can do nothing more than work from a script and common sense goes out of the window it is very frustrating. The debacle where some insurers considered fitting winter tyres as a modification shows just how clueless insurers can be.  

 

Insurance companies don't treat decent customers fairly because they tar us all with the same brush. without a doubt there are some drivers who do try and scam insurers but the majority of us don't. Sadly the insurers set their standards by the lowest common denominator and too often treat us all like idiots.    

[Paul_B]

As said, if in doubt tell them.  I've accompanied the gentleman and ladies that check after a fatal and theres no way they wouldn't find the smallest item.

matelodave  tells of his friend with the mini, I was into customising minis big time and asked them how would they know, the list they gave was truly amazing, not just visual thing like the carbs or block but really involved things, the things I did for grass tracking like sprite heads and stage 3 tuning were small compared to what they knew could be done.

 

I have no doubt that in todays tuning world these people will be second to non.

[Kayak]

It became obvious to me that I am going to go over the estimated mileage I gave at the time of taking out my insurance. It was based on previous yearly mileage, but due to various reasons I have done a greater mileage this year.   On the insurance policy it states "Estimated mileage 14000 ." I asked the insurance company for their definition of estimated but they couldn't give one. All they would say was that if I go over the 14000 and had to make a claim it may be refused. I was able to add another 3000 miles for no extra premium but had to pay the £25 admin fee. I would have thought that an estimate is a guess and there would be some flexibility of say a couple of thousand on an estimated 14000, however I'm not prepared to take the chance with insurance companies.

[David 38]

I was an Estimator, not insurance and I was expected to be within + or _ 5%

[Black Grouse]

6 minutes ago, David Park said:

I was an Estimator, not insurance and I was expected to be within + or _ 5%

 

But that's as a professional - private car users aren't (generally) professional estimators - when I'm renewing my car insurance I know what last year's mileage was and know what the next year's plan is, but I don't know if the plan will change and if so by how much.

[JTQ]

Then you "estimate" the contingency you need 

[Durbanite]

16 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

My attitude is “If in doubt tell ‘em” 

 

Andy

However if you did not know that the engine had been remapped, alloys added in place of steel wheels, tow bar added, radio updated by the first owner of the vehicle and you are now the third owner of the vehicle, you are unable to tell them however should you be penalised in the event of a claim?

Edited December 16, 2018 by Durbanite

[SamD]

1 hour ago, Durbanite said:

However if you did not know that the engine had been remapped, alloys added in place of steel wheels, tow bar added, radio updated by the first owner of the vehicle and you are now the third owner of the vehicle, you are unable to tell them however should you be penalised in the event of a claim?

 

Are you not certifying 'no mods' when you take out insurance?

 

[JTQ]

1 hour ago, Durbanite said:

However if you did not know that the engine had been remapped, alloys added in place of steel wheels, tow bar added, radio updated by the first owner of the vehicle and you are now the third owner of the vehicle, you are unable to tell them however should you be penalised in the event of a claim?

 

Is it fair that they cover any costs that have roots in one's ignorance?

 

IMO, it is our liability to know what we are insuring, our mistake if we don't know.  

 

If we don't know then what chance have they of knowing what they are underwriting the risk of?

 

No friend of insurance companies, but with this question I can't see how they can be expected to pay out if what they are insuring was not properly declared?

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by JTQ

[Durbanite]

35 minutes ago, SamD said:

 

Are you not certifying 'no mods' when you take out insurance?

 

Correct because you are not aware of that any modifications have been done by a previous owner so you are being truthful when replying to questions.

w

37 minutes ago, JTQ said:

Is it fair that they cover any costs that have roots in one's ignorance?

IMO, it is our liability to know what we are insuring, our mistake if we don't know.  

If we don't know then what chance have they of knowing what they are underwriting the risk of?

No friend of insurance companies, but with this question I can't see how they can be expected to pay out if what they are insuring was not properly declared?

If you are not aware of the modification how can you be ignorant of it as you bought the vehicle in good faith as being a standard model?  I agree it is our liability but again if you are not aware fo the modification how can you be liable.   How many people would take a vehicle to the dealership and pay for them to check if any modifications have been made?  Lastly to the bets of your knowledge you have declared the vehicle to be standard therefore in your mind it was properly declared.

BTW surely this would also apply if you buy a caravan and it has been down plated surely this would have a knock on effect on insuring it as the new MTPLM is now different to what it was out of the factory however you are none the wiser as you have bought it second hand.   However this is being discussed on another thread.

[SamD]

26 minutes ago, Durbanite said:

Correct because you are not aware of that any modifications have been done by a previous owner so you are being truthful when replying to questions.

 

Does it ask you if you are aware of any mods OR have any mods been made?

[Durbanite]

1 minute ago, SamD said:

 

Does it ask you if you are aware of any mods OR have any mods been made?

No idea as my insurance is not due for several months.   As said in an earlier post it is a hypothetical question, but some of us could be affected unknowingly.

[Black Grouse]

2 hours ago, JTQ said:

Then you "estimate" the contingency you need 

 

How? Adding in a couple of 1,000 mile trips that weren't planned at renewal time makes a big contingency that may not be used in many years but increase the premium nevertheless.

[Guest]

 

Most insurance companies dont ask for your speedo reading at the beginning and end of the insurance period and I'd even doubt that they check MOT info so worrying about going 1-2k over your estimate would really be nit picking. A estimate is an educated guess, not a precise calculation.

 

I guess the insurance premium isn't calculated to within the nearest 1000, so estimates to within say even 2-3k probably wont make much difference if any to the premiums.

 

I'd suggest that all they want to know is roughly within about 5k miles whether you are a low medium or high mileage driver say less than 5k, around 10k or more than15k unless you are a very high mileage at 20k

 

(I used to do around 35k when I was at work -  25k just getting there and back.  My wife would do around 25k - now it's around 10k in mine and 7k in hers)

[beejay]

33 minutes ago, matelodave said:

 

Most insurance companies dont ask for your speedo reading at the beginning and end of the insurance period and I'd even doubt that they check MOT info so worrying about going 1-2k over your estimate would really be nit picking.

 

 

 

They check -  believe it!  More miles per year = more risk which is why the mileage is required. MoT record online goes back to car's third year  and service records for newer vehicles means mileage is easily verified.   In the event of an accident claim the insurance assessor will take everything into consideration,  Seen these checks done many times.

[shipbroker]

46 minutes ago, matelodave said:

Most insurance companies dont ask for your speedo reading at the beginning and end of the insurance period and I'd even doubt that they check MOT info so worrying about going 1-2k over your estimate would really be nit picking. A estimate is an educated guess, not a precise calculation.

 

I guess the insurance premium isn't calculated to within the nearest 1000, so estimates to within say even 2-3k probably wont make much difference if any to the premiums.

 

Re-did mine last month and one of the stumbling points pricewise was the supposed difference between 8k and 10k per annum, quoting anything up to £35 difference. They all agreed that they didn't know my start or finish mileage and one sensible man, at LV, said it didn't make a lot of difference. ...but the fact that I had non-standard alloys did and side steps also. ...but the man from NFU said side steps and towbar were taken as granted and anything under 15k a year was fine.

 

In the end I bunged all the non-standards on the various comparison sites, plus the slightly higher mileage, and threw them all back at LV,the best being the moneysupermarket site which saved me £48 against LV renewal quote.  

 

geoff

[JTQ]

1 hour ago, Black Grouse said:

 

How? Adding in a couple of 1,000 mile trips that weren't planned at renewal time makes a big contingency that may not be used in many years but increase the premium nevertheless.

 

Surely if we want to minimise our premium by restrictive mileage then the onus is on us to keep within it, or be prepared to  monitor it and pay up to extend it when that looms? 

 

IMO, having a 2000 mile contingency is the order I would wish to have to not be overly worried about using a car as we need it.   

 

Edit: on what insurance companies check, years back they depth gauged my spare wheel, that was in no way involved with a no blame shunt claim my son had; so I would not assume they don't do checks.

Edited December 16, 2018 by JTQ

[lowedb]

A couple of points. Be aware that some insurance companies count factory fitted options, as modifications. So if you buy a car and it has optional heated washer jets, you should declare them. But how on earth would s second owner know they were fitted, and that they were an option in the first place. It's all the worse because some insurance companies who insist on this, have no way of actually recording this. So my heated washer jets (option) were recorded as alloy wheels (which were actually standard).

 

And as for remaps being undetectable, it depends how far someone wants to go. I heard anecdotally, about a remapped car where  the investigating officers were convinced the engine power had been increased given how fast the vehicle was travelling at impact, given the same vehicle was recorded as being stationary at some traffic signals shortly beforehand. I was told they got the manufacturer compare what was in the engine ECU with what it would have left the factory with and found it had been changed.  

[Mr Plodd]

3 hours ago, lowedb said:

 

 

And as for remaps being undetectable, it depends how far someone wants to go. I heard anecdotally, about a remapped car where  the investigating officers were convinced the engine power had been increased given how fast the vehicle was travelling at impact, given the same vehicle was recorded as being stationary at some traffic signals shortly beforehand. I was told they got the manufacturer compare what was in the engine ECU with what it would have left the factory with and found it had been changed.  

 

Not at all uncommon in fatal crash investigations and yes the manufacturer CAN tell if an ECU has been remapped. Some can even determine date and time! 

 

Having said that I think it highly unlikely that the manufacturers would extend that service to Insurance companies simply because of the time it would take to do each one. It’s not something that can be done remotely, you have to have the ECU in order to  connect into it.  

 

Andy