Durbanite Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 If you buy a vehicle where the engine has been, unknown to you, remapped and you insure it as being standard vehicle and it is later found to have been remapped, what is your position regarding insurance especially if you have been involved in a mishap. Should the insurance still pay out as you were not acting fraudulently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shipbroker Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 . ....and how are they to find out? geoff 1 Quote Kia Sorento KX-1 CRDI 4WD towing an Elddis Affinity 530 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankBullet Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 In reality it would never realistically be traced if it’s an ECU remap - much less anyone would bother looking for it. I declare mine on the A2 but I could probably not bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Interesting this one - My mate had a mini which had tweaked carburettors which are probably more obvious than say an engine re-map. They were not declared on his insurance. One night he was lying asleep in his bed and his car was on the drivewhen a joyrider in another car mounted the pavement and wiped his mini off the drive. His insurance company refused to pay out as they were noticed by the assessor. He had not declared the mods even though he denied that he knew about them. Of course the joy rider wasn't insured either so he lost out . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodie106 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 If youre talking about your Shogun then i wouldn't worry as they have the same engine with a slightly different map for the range of outputs. As Geoff said, how would they know? I was looking in to having mine done when i replace the exhaust for a stainless system. Is having a stainless exhaust a modification? Its still the same thing just made out of a different material. Quote I refer you to the Rt Hon Member for the 19th Century.....................pictured just to the left of your screen.................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevan Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 29 minutes ago, Durbanite said: If you buy a vehicle where the engine has been, unknown to you, remapped and you insure it as being standard vehicle and it is later found to have been remapped, what is your position regarding insurance especially if you have been involved in a mishap. Should the insurance still pay out as you were not acting fraudulently? In theory the insurer could cancel the policy, but whether this would pass the ombudsman is probably yet to be seen. However, as Shipbroker points out they are unlikely ever to find out. An ECU remap would require them to spend money having it examined, which they would be unlikely to do unless there was reason to believe that it was modified. And even a plug in remap is,( unlike twin carburettors) unlikely to be spotted unless the assessor is looking for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetA1 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 34 minutes ago, Woodie106 said: If youre talking about your Shogun then i wouldn't worry as they have the same engine with a slightly different map for the range of outputs. As Geoff said, how would they know? I was looking in to having mine done when i replace the exhaust for a stainless system. Is having a stainless exhaust a modification? Its still the same thing just made out of a different material. Given that some insurers have made the strange decision to class fitting winter tyres as a modification who knows what they'd make of a stainless exhaust. Insurers always appear to be looking for anything to stack the odds in their favour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durbanite Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share Posted December 15, 2018 38 minutes ago, Woodie106 said: If youre talking about your Shogun then i wouldn't worry as they have the same engine with a slightly different map for the range of outputs. As Geoff said, how would they know? I was looking in to having mine done when i replace the exhaust for a stainless system. Is having a stainless exhaust a modification? Its still the same thing just made out of a different material. It was a hypothetical question and I no longer have the Shogun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David 38 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 As long as OP answers questions correctly and declares modifications he is aware of how can he be committing fraud? Quote Regards, David Peugeot 308 GT Premium, 1.5 diesel 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscarmax Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 A few years ago in 2010 we had our Fiat Ducats motor home mapped by Alex at Boosters, apparent the mapping is already there and just requires the restrictions lifting and setting, we went for the maximum 177 BHP. Alex informed mapping always leave a trace and advised always inform your insurances companies. When we had to have a new clutch a few years latter Fiat flashed the memory. Our Toyota Aygo has a stainless steel exhaust it is classed as a modification and had to go to the underwriters. 1 Quote 2023 Suzuki Across Hybrid and 2016 Swift Conqueror 480 HT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leedslad Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 If it was unknown to you, then you wouldn't be posting the question. Would you? John. 2 Quote Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he'll tell you. If he doesn't, why humiliate him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David 38 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 14 minutes ago, Oscarmax said: Alex informed mapping always leave a trace and advised always inform your insurances companies. Just a further thought when re-mapped does that changes any of the figures in the log book therefore the DVLA would need advising as well as the insurer? Quote Regards, David Peugeot 308 GT Premium, 1.5 diesel 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durbanite Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share Posted December 15, 2018 19 minutes ago, Leedslad said: If it was unknown to you, then you wouldn't be posting the question. Would you? John. Please see my earlier post about hypothetical question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankBullet Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 20 minutes ago, David Park said: Just a further thought when re-mapped does that changes any of the figures in the log book therefore the DVLA would need advising as well as the insurer? No, there’s no need to inform the DVLA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ern Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 If an engine is remapped the characteristics change. Power, Torque, fuel consumption all change, and what of the emissions and taxation class? Additional power could put the car into a different taxation class. Quote Ern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Grouse Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 7 minutes ago, Ern said: If an engine is remapped the characteristics change. Power, Torque, fuel consumption all change, and what of the emissions and taxation class? Additional power could put the car into a different taxation class. They don't change though - just as a worn engine will affect fuel consumption and emissions but that doesn't alter it either. Quote 2015 VW Touareg 3. 0 V6 TDI + 2013 Lunar Clubman ES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydug Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 2 hours ago, FrankBullet said: In reality it would never realistically be traced if it’s an ECU remap - much less anyone would bother looking for it. 2 Three or 4 years ago I used to moderate on a car forum. One of my fellow moderators was the owner of a PSA-Indy garage and an MOT tester. He often said that in the future cars submitted for MOT would require to have their engine characteristics read and compared with standard through the OBD socket. I think he was right! I think it will happen here eventually . Since last May it's already being done on the Spanish ITV. http://cervantesalarcon. com/en/2018/04/17/changes-to-the-itv/ Quote Citroen C5-X7 Tourer+Avondale Rialto 480/2 https://jondogoescaravanning.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ern Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 9 minutes ago, Black Grouse said: They don't change though - just as a worn engine will affect fuel consumption and emissions but that doesn't alter it either. If you remap an engine to bump the power up from 150 to 180bhp the characteristics change considerably. Quote Ern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Well, I checked with the insurance company when I had the tow bar fitted, and they DID want to know. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durbanite Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share Posted December 15, 2018 33 minutes ago, Guzzilazz said: Well, I checked with the insurance company when I had the tow bar fitted, and they DID want to know. .. Apparently it alters the value of the vehicle adding a tow bar or stainless steel exhaust? Our insurance company had to interest in whether I fitted tow bar or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beejay Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 3 hours ago, jetA1 said: Given that some insurers have made the strange decision to class fitting winter tyres as a modification who knows what they'd make of a stainless exhaust. Insurers always appear to be looking for anything to stack the odds in their favour. Nearly all UK insurers do not require advising about winter tyres, ABI Winter tyre approval list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericmark Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 I was asked if the car was modified, I answered well from a standard Renalt Kango yes, from a standard GoWing which is the name on the log book no, loads of alteration done to make it into a disability car. Told they needed to know, but they are not permitted to load the insurance as a result, even though cost of recovery may increase as the recovery vehicle would need to carry a wheel chair. As to not knowing it has been modified, insurance is rather unusual in that they don't need to ask, you are duty bound to inform them of any additional risk. However if my cars have been altered, I would not know, as I don't down load the software and check, and I have no other car of same type to compare it to, and I suspect VW will need to do some remapping now they have been caught cheating? So likely VW cars will lose some power, as to if this will mean different road tax I suspect not. Neither would I expect a reduction in insurance. However in many legal things we find the word "reasonable" and if the software is changed it actually logs the date of the change, so if that date is before you had the car, then it is 'reasonable' to consider you did not know of the change, since there is no visible or other thing to show you it has changed, OK it may go better, however if done before you bought the car, you would be unaware the car did have enhanced performance. Quad cabs and super chargers are rather obvious, when I put an 1100 engine in my mini, there was not anything external which would show what had been done, so as long as I had registered the new engine number with county council who did it at that time, you could not really see anything to show you what had been done. Had I not changed engine number on registration document then maybe alarm bells should ring, although more likely to consider it stolen than upgraded. So as long as the software change was done before you bought the car, I don't think you really have a problem, but if your using 'I didn't know' as an excuse, and you have had it done your self since buying the car, then that wouldn't wash, if the insurance ever found out. Oddly with electric push bikes when going for a service the software is examined, so if you cheated with an electric bike the service people would know, as far as I am aware the report of faults is not auto down loaded on a service, although maybe they should. I question if you can get more power by altering software, why don't you have that power anyway? I can see with a push bike over 250 watt it does not comply with law and if assistance given over 16. 6 MPH also does not comply with law, so I can see why the restriction is put in the software. So is the reason with cars some thing similar, would it fall into a different taxation class for example? The 1st March 2001 the tax rules changed, so it will depend when first registered. Up to that date it was if under or over 1549 cc or not, after that date it is on emissions, so the g/km of CO2 will likely change when you remap the engine, depending on before and after figures you could be defrauding the government of up to £555 per year. So to remap the engine your between hard place and a rock, if you tell insurance they you may also need to tell vehicle tax people, they use words like 'radically alter', so may not be required, however since I have not remapped an engine, I don't need to know if or how you need to tell DVSA but I am sure those who have altered the vehicle can answer that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Plodd Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 (edited) As someone who dealt with many insurance “issues” over the years my advice is that insurance companies require you to “notify” them of ANY modifications from the manufacturers “standard” spec for that particular model. There was a serious problem with early Mazda MX5’s The vast majority left the factory with steel wheels, almost all had alloys fitted prior to resale by the dealerships. However the purchasers were not aware of that modification, but the insurance companies most certainly WERE and wriggled out of a fair few claims because the owners had not notified them of the modification from “standard spec” So my advice would always be tell the insurers about ANY modification, and that includes towbars, stainless exhausts, different wheels etc. Most will not have an impact on the premium but may well have an impact on any claim you have to make. An engine remap will almost certainly result in an increase in premium because of the increase in power. If you fail to notify the insurer and they discover it they will almost certainly refuse to pay out. Can you afford to write a cheque to replace your current car? Because that’s the situation you MIGHT find yourself in if you keep Schtum! Never lose sight of the fact that insurance companies are NOT there to be your friend. They are huge commercial companies who’s sole purpose is to make money for their shareholders and if they can get out of paying out for a claim, they will. As far as the road tax tax issue is concerned I am fairly certain that it’s based on what is declared by the manufacturer from new. An engine modification (remap) will not alter that, but a different engine possibly would. Andy Edited December 15, 2018 by Mr Plodd 1 Quote Experience is something you acquire after you have an urgent need for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamD Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 2 hours ago, Guzzilazz said: Well, I checked with the insurance company when I had the tow bar fitted, and they DID want to know. .. 2 hours ago, Durbanite said: Apparently it alters the value of the vehicle adding a tow bar or stainless steel exhaust? Our insurance company had to interest in whether I fitted tow bar or not. I have mentioned this before but I currently have a discount for declaring my towbar! 1 Quote Sam Range Rover Sport - Auto Sleepers Kensington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukijb Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 I fitted MAD rear suspension spring assisters on my VW Touran as the towbar when fitted, is on the minimum distance from the ground and the caravan tended to ride nose down. Fitting the MAD springs completely changed the ride height and improved the general towing, particularly on the motorway. Would this be classed as a modification and should i be informing my insurance company even though it make the vehicle more stable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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