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I would think that

3 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

 

I suspect youve listened for too long to the Delta sales speak and are now brainwashed! At the end of the day with the simple setups we have the axle holds the wheel at the edge of the caravan and allows it to move up and down, thats it, nothing more. The amount of toe in change with the suspension movement is minimal, I seriously doubt you can tell the difference from the driving seat.

 

I would concur with the above statement. My view is that the aerodynamics of the caravan will have a FAR greater impact on its dynamic stability. Looked at logically when being towed in a straight line, on a level road the suspension is doing very little other than absorbing the occasional bump, so remains in a stable and virtually stationary condition. What IS likely to alter constantly is the air flow over, under and around the caravan so, in my view, THATS what is going to have the much greater impact on trailer stability. Ask yourself when most “swaying” incidents happen? It’s when some external force (such as an overtaking vehicle or sudden gust of wind) ALTERS the airflow, such actions don’t alter the suspension alignment.  

The only purpose of having “toe in” is to ensure that the wheels are actually parallel when in motion (they are pushed back very slightly when the vehicle is in motion, and before anyone says “What about front wheel drive, they have toe OUT” Yes they do, that’s because when power is applied to them they pull forwards slightly and thus actually run parallel) If the toe in is incorrect then you will get excessive wear on the outside of the tread if the toe in is to much and on the inside if it’s towing out too much. If it’s  correct then wear is even across the entire tread width.  

 

There is a similar situation with car suspension, some used the McPherson strut set up and others use single or double wishbone. If one was demonstrably better than the other everyone would use it!!!

 

I have a single axle caravan MGVW 1500 kg, that’s higher than 85% of my tow cars kerb weight, I have towed it many thousands of miles across Europe and it has always been as stable as a rock. Maybe I’ve been lucky, maybe my caravan is very stable, maybe it’s  because I have an estate car and the airflow from it over the caravan is better. Whatever it is I have no stability issues. I suppose being entirely logical tag axles should be more stable, but they tend to be a fair bit heavier so is it the extra weight that adds to the stability? The greater the mass the more energy will be required to overcome its inertia. It’s all a very complex matter and I am sure that there is no one single factor involved.  

 

So to sum sum it all up, I would be much more concerned with the layout and quality of any caravan than I would ever be about which axle it was equipped with.  

 

Andy

Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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The real problem though with this discussion is that we needed someone to have towed, with the same car, two identical caravans, one with Delta and the other normal single; in the same wind conditions

IMHO four tyres making contact with the ground are always going to be better than two. And just for the record I have towed with both a single axle and a twin but only made by ALKO.

I’m fitting tractor tyres 

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3 hours ago, Durbanite said:

Do you have the ALDE heating?

No, Truma gas  fire and Truma Aventa Air Con/Heating, we don’t use it in Winter

3 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

I would think that

 

I would concur with the above statement. My view is that the aerodynamics of the caravan will have a FAR greater impact on its dynamic stability. Looked at logically when being towed in a straight line, on a level road the suspension is doing very little other than absorbing the occasional bump, so remains in a stable and virtually stationary condition. What IS likely to alter constantly is the air flow over, under and around the caravan so, in my view, THATS what is going to have the much greater impact on trailer stability. Ask yourself when most “swaying” incidents happen? It’s when some external force (such as an overtaking vehicle or sudden gust of wind) ALTERS the airflow, such actions don’t alter the suspension alignment.  

The only purpose of having “toe in” is to ensure that the wheels are actually parallel when in motion (they are pushed back very slightly when the vehicle is in motion, and before anyone says “What about front wheel drive, they have toe OUT” Yes they do, that’s because when power is applied to them they pull forwards slightly and thus actually run parallel) If the toe in is incorrect then you will get excessive wear on the outside of the tread if the toe in is to much and on the inside if it’s towing out too much. If it’s  correct then wear is even across the entire tread width.  

 

There is a similar situation with car suspension, some used the McPherson strut set up and others use single or double wishbone. If one was demonstrably better than the other everyone would use it!!!

 

I have a single axle caravan MGVW 1500 kg, that’s higher than 85% of my tow cars kerb weight, I have towed it many thousands of miles across Europe and it has always been as stable as a rock. Maybe I’ve been lucky, maybe my caravan is very stable, maybe it’s  because I have an estate car and the airflow from it over the caravan is better. Whatever it is I have no stability issues. I suppose being entirely logical tag axles should be more stable, but they tend to be a fair bit heavier so is it the extra weight that adds to the stability? The greater the mass the more energy will be required to overcome its inertia. It’s all a very complex matter and I am sure that there is no one single factor involved.  

 

So to sum sum it all up, I would be much more concerned with the layout and quality of any caravan than I would ever be about which axle it was equipped with.  

 

Andy

Well I’ve had caravans with and without a Delta Axle, the difference is noticeable and in my opinion considerable, never had a twin Axle though so they may be the best thing since sliced bread, I wouldn’t know.

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Decision made gone with 4 wheels strength in numbers and all that.  

2019 Adria Alpina Colorado With E&P Pulled by 2019 VW Amarok Highline

 

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9 hours ago, Borussia 1900 said:

How can 2 axles (4 tyres etc) be cheaper than 1?

Borussia, you asked "If they aren't as good as a TA set up why do all German manufacturers (less Hobby, I think they use a different brand of chassis)) put up to 2 tonnes of caravan on them? )"

 

I answered - economy 1 axle is cheaper than two, simple really.

6 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

I would think that

 

I would concur with the above statement. My view is that the aerodynamics of the caravan will have a FAR greater impact on its dynamic stability. Looked at logically when being towed in a straight line, on a level road the suspension is doing very little other than absorbing the occasional bump, so remains in a stable and virtually stationary condition. What IS likely to alter constantly is the air flow over, under and around the caravan so, in my view, THATS what is going to have the much greater impact on trailer stability. Ask yourself when most “swaying” incidents happen? It’s when some external force (such as an overtaking vehicle or sudden gust of wind) ALTERS the airflow, such actions don’t alter the suspension alignment.  

The only purpose of having “toe in” is to ensure that the wheels are actually parallel when in motion (they are pushed back very slightly when the vehicle is in motion, and before anyone says “What about front wheel drive, they have toe OUT” Yes they do, that’s because when power is applied to them they pull forwards slightly and thus actually run parallel) If the toe in is incorrect then you will get excessive wear on the outside of the tread if the toe in is to much and on the inside if it’s towing out too much. If it’s  correct then wear is even across the entire tread width.  

 

There is a similar situation with car suspension, some used the McPherson strut set up and others use single or double wishbone. If one was demonstrably better than the other everyone would use it!!!

 

I have a single axle caravan MGVW 1500 kg, that’s higher than 85% of my tow cars kerb weight, I have towed it many thousands of miles across Europe and it has always been as stable as a rock. Maybe I’ve been lucky, maybe my caravan is very stable, maybe it’s  because I have an estate car and the airflow from it over the caravan is better. Whatever it is I have no stability issues. I suppose being entirely logical tag axles should be more stable, but they tend to be a fair bit heavier so is it the extra weight that adds to the stability? The greater the mass the more energy will be required to overcome its inertia. It’s all a very complex matter and I am sure that there is no one single factor involved.  

 

So to sum sum it all up, I would be much more concerned with the layout and quality of any caravan than I would ever be about which axle it was equipped with.  

 

Andy

:goodpost:Totally agree with you.

2 hours ago, Borussia 1900 said:

No, Truma gas  fire and Truma Aventa Air Con/Heating, we don’t use it in Winter

Well I’ve had caravans with and without a Delta Axle, the difference is noticeable and in my opinion considerable, never had a twin Axle though so they may be the best thing since sliced bread, I wouldn’t know.

They most definitely are :lol:

28 minutes ago, Mark&Penny14 said:

Decision made gone with 4 wheels strength in numbers and all that.  

Well done that man, you wont regret it.

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46 minutes ago, Mark&Penny14 said:

Decision made gone with 4 wheels strength in numbers and all that.  

You can’t win em all :D

2x Billy Basic Cheap n Nasty Axles 1:0 Modern Top Spec Engineering

 

 

😂😂😂

 

25 minutes ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

 

Well done that man, you wont regret it.

Mark & Penny sounds like a man and a woman  :D

Edited by Borussia 1900

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48 minutes ago, Mark&Penny14 said:

Decision made gone with 4 wheels strength in numbers and all that.  

 

I think you have bottled it and gone with the herd, hope you don’t live to regret it.  

What brand of tyres do Coachman fit?

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30 minutes ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

 

I hope they’ve got a big car and a roof box because 2 axles or not, you can’t put much in a UK made caravan 

Edited by Borussia 1900

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Blimey Fred & Borussia you sound just like the remoan camp, get over it.

 

The MAJORITY of people with twin axles say they're more stable than single axles, from an engineering point of view they simply have to be, you don't need to be Einstein to work that one out. As for the payload, theres usually sufficient for what you want to carry, I haven't found it a limitation.

 

Final point I dont think is was particularly nice the final comment 'I hope you don't live to regret it', Mark & Penny made a decision and in my opinion the right one, they should be encouraged not sowing seeds of doubt just because is not aligned with your beliefs.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

Blimey Fred & Borussia you sound just like the remoan camp, get over it.

 

The MAJORITY of people with twin axles say they're more stable than single axles, from an engineering point of view they simply have to be, you don't need to be Einstein to work that one out. As for the payload, theres usually sufficient for what you want to carry, I haven't found it a limitation.

 

Final point I dont think is was particularly nice the final comment 'I hope you don't live to regret it', Mark & Penny made a decision and in my opinion the right one, they should be encouraged not sowing seeds of doubt just because is not aligned with your beliefs.

 

 

1: I’m not a Remainer

2: You’re still comparing Twin Axles to UK Single Axles which aren’t Euro Delta Axles so the comparison is irrelevant 

3: The MAJORITY of people who wore blue jumpers said they prefer the colour blue. ........ and jumpers 

4: UK caravans have sufficient payload (not according to this Forum they don’t)

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2 hours ago, fred said:

 

I think you have bottled it and gone with the herd, hope you don’t live to regret it.  

What brand of tyres do Coachman fit?

I’m fitting tractor tyres 

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2019 Adria Alpina Colorado With E&P Pulled by 2019 VW Amarok Highline

 

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12 minutes ago, Mark&Penny14 said:

I’m fitting tractor tyres 

See other threads for recommended tractor tyres :D

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43 minutes ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

Blimey Fred & Borussia you sound just like the remoan camp, get over it.

 

The MAJORITY of people with twin axles say they're more stable than single axles, from an engineering point of view they simply have to be, you don't need to be Einstein to work that one out. As for the payload, theres usually sufficient for what you want to carry, I haven't found it a limitation.

 

Final point I dont think is was particularly nice the final comment 'I hope you don't live to regret it', Mark & Penny made a decision and in my opinion the right one, they should be encouraged not sowing seeds of doubt just because is not aligned with your beliefs.

 

 

Thanks Aj Galaxy it was a bit harsh after all we all strive to buy the best that we can afford, I have been towing for close to 30 years  all I have done is ask for opinions not judgements!! I won’t live to regret it as it’s british and can be serviced in multiple places without the stupidly that Adria put in place to make ownership as difficult as possible.  

 

The laws of physics suggest that 4 contact patches are better than 2, I ride a bike and can assure you that my stopping distances and stability are far better in the car than on the bike, especially on a wet greasy road and I would sooner have a puncture in the car than on the bike, as I have saved a huge amount of money on the caravan I can fit whatever tyres I like!!!! End of.

 

Rant mode Off

 

Mark

 

oh and yes we are a couple.

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Good luck and lots of fun with your new caravan Mark (and Penny), I don’t think Fred was trying to be harsh, it’s just the nature of Forums, folk tend to get a little opinionated (me included). 

I never said I wouldn’t have a TA, if I lived in the UK I probably would but where I live if they are 2 tonne MTPLM or less they are generally on a single axle.

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44 minutes ago, Mark&Penny14 said:

 I won’t live to regret it as it’s british and can be serviced in multiple places without the stupidly that Adria put in place to make ownership as difficult as possible.  

 

What is the service problem?  It cost me less to have the Adria serviced than for the Elddis, but I just went back to supplying dealer for both?  Maybe servicing was cheaper as there is only one axle. .., sorry could not resist - can people please not throw things at me.  Is the stopping capability not also impacted by the size of the contact point with the road, big tyre, big contact, small tyre small contact. ...  Who cares as long as we all can manage to get the van we like.  We went for the Adria because of the interior ambiance and build quality, it just happened to have one axle, which fortunately works very well in this instance.

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6 hours ago, Borussia 1900 said:

1: I’m not a Remainer

2: You’re still comparing Twin Axles to UK Single Axles which aren’t Euro Delta Axles so the comparison is irrelevant 

3: The MAJORITY of people who wore blue jumpers said they prefer the colour blue. ........ and jumpers 

4: UK caravans have sufficient payload (not according to this Forum they don’t)

1) I never said you were, I said you were like the remainers

2) No I'm not, I'm comparing twin axles and single axles of whatever flavour you prefer and still maintain that twin axle will be more stable than single axle. You're fixated thinking that I'm comparing a 'standard' twin axle with a Delta single axle which I'm not and never have. FWIW I don't believe the Delta axle provides such miraculous benefits, if you want to believe in this snakeoil please feel free.

3) And your point is?

4)  The majority of people on this forum do not complain about Payload.

6 hours ago, Mark&Penny14 said:

Thanks Aj Galaxy it was a bit harsh after all we all strive to buy the best that we can afford, I have been towing for close to 30 years  all I have done is ask for opinions not judgements!! I won’t live to regret it as it’s british and can be serviced in multiple places without the stupidly that Adria put in place to make ownership as difficult as possible.  

 

The laws of physics suggest that 4 contact patches are better than 2, I ride a bike and can assure you that my stopping distances and stability are far better in the car than on the bike, especially on a wet greasy road and I would sooner have a puncture in the car than on the bike, as I have saved a huge amount of money on the caravan I can fit whatever tyres I like!!!! End of.

 

Rant mode Off

 

Mark

 

oh and yes we are a couple.

Have a great time with you twin axle, IMHO they look better, they tow very stable and have significant advantages in a puncture situation. One tip if do get a puncture, no jack needed, drive the good tyre up a levelling ramp, swap the wheel drive off the ramp.

 

Twin 'v' single is always quite an emotive subject and guaranteed to get the post count up. There are many more, dogs on sites, rinsing down showers, speed limits etc.

 

The main thing, despite all of the polarising views, we all have one thing that we all agree on - CARAVANNING (there are some oddballs that like motor home thingys as well):D

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5 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

1) I never said you were, I said you were like the remainers

2) No I'm not, I'm comparing twin axles and single axles of whatever flavour you prefer and still maintain that twin axle will be more stable than single axle. You're fixated thinking that I'm comparing a 'standard' twin axle with a Delta single axle which I'm not and never have. FWIW I don't believe the Delta axle provides such miraculous benefits, if you want to believe in this snakeoil please feel free.

3) And your point is?

4)  The majority of people on this forum do not complain about Payload.

Have a great time with you twin axle, IMHO they look better, they tow very stable and have significant advantages in a puncture situation. One tip if do get a puncture, no jack needed, drive the good tyre up a levelling ramp, swap the wheel drive off the ramp.

 

Twin 'v' single is always quite an emotive subject and guaranteed to get the post count up. There are many more, dogs on sites, rinsing down showers, speed limits etc.

 

The main thing, despite all of the polarising views, we all have one thing that we all agree on - CARAVANNING (there are some oddballs that like motor home thingys as well):D

Motor homes😂now that’s another story altogether 

2019 Adria Alpina Colorado With E&P Pulled by 2019 VW Amarok Highline

 

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13 minutes ago, Durbanite said:

We think that the payload for our twin axle is pathetic and we have to carry a lot in the vehicle.

It is pathetic.   Why can’t  Elddis offer a 2500kg axle like Vanmaster, it what is portrayed as the UKs most luxurious caravan?

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16 minutes ago, Durbanite said:

We think that the payload for our twin axle is pathetic and we have to carry a lot in the vehicle.

 

Just the same with our single axle, even with the max load upgrade!  

 

Andy

Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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22 hours ago, GaryB1969 said:

Out of interest, do/did BPW use a Delta style axle?  I had a 2007 Elddis a while ago and I have a feeling that had something similar?

 

Majority of BPW chassis at that time used a VTEC axle with a geometry suspension that did not tilt when cornering .

 

 

Dave

Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD

Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto

Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover .

 

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When it comes to weights Im sure that caravan manufacturers are all being forced to an extent to reduce weight as cars are becoming lighter and thus are not able to tow as much, with all the green issues going on maybe in the future all caravans will be twin axles being pulled by electric cars and utilising the trailing axle on the van to be driven by an electric motor powered by a solar panel the size of the roof (im sure the lunatics in the asylum AKA parliament would want that) , at the end of the day caravans have more in them now than ever, i remember my first caravan in the eighties a very small very light sprite alpine, in fact it was that light i could pull it with my mower, but it had one light bulb and a manual diaphragm foot pump to get water to the tap and a bucket. ... 

 

The reality is, it is was it is!!!

 

Back to wheels 4 is better than 2 if you loose 1 when you have 4 you have 3 if you loose 1 when you have 2 you have a problem!!

 

Mark

Tell this chap about the power of 2

5b13f7bf7f949ff0d983fe089f85bfdb.jpg

Even with 1 horse power 4 is better

 

 

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2019 Adria Alpina Colorado With E&P Pulled by 2019 VW Amarok Highline

 

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21 hours ago, Borussia 1900 said:

You can’t win em all :D

2x Billy Basic Cheap n Nasty Axles 1:0 Modern Top Spec Engineering

 

Just out of interest Borussia, what evidence do you have that the Delta axle is better? I cant find any independent testing nor can I see a believable explanation that justifies your claims. The explanation on the Alko site about it resisting weight transfer is absolute hogwash and can be easily contested in pure engineering terms, I've drawn it up on CAD to have a look at the geometry changes at FULL suspension travel and it's so small to be insignificant.

If you have links to viable information other than manufacturers info I'd be interested to have a read.

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1 hour ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

Just out of interest Borussia, what evidence do you have that the Delta axle is better? I cant find any independent testing nor can I see a believable explanation that justifies your claims. The explanation on the Alko site about it resisting weight transfer is absolute hogwash and can be easily contested in pure engineering terms, I've drawn it up on CAD to have a look at the geometry changes at FULL suspension travel and it's so small to be insignificant.

If you have links to viable information other than manufacturers info I'd be interested to have a read.

I don’t spend my evenings gathering evidence, I’m not that sad. I have had single axle caravans with and without a Delta Axle, the difference is immediately obvious. If you ever get the chance to test both try them and you’ll know what I mean.

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24 minutes ago, Borussia 1900 said:

I don’t spend my evenings gathering evidence, I’m not that sad. I have had single axle caravans with and without a Delta Axle, the difference is immediately obvious. If you ever get the chance to test both try them and you’ll know what I mean.

Now there lies the problem we get to test drive cars but I’ve never been offered a test tow with a caravan! So you hand. Over your hard earned cash hitch up and don’t like the outfit who’s out of pocket?

 

Did someone mention motorhomes 😂 

2019 Adria Alpina Colorado With E&P Pulled by 2019 VW Amarok Highline

 

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1 hour ago, Mark&Penny14 said:

Now there lies the problem we get to test drive cars but I’ve never been offered a test tow with a caravan! So you hand. Over your hard earned cash hitch up and don’t like the outfit who’s out of pocket?

 

Did someone mention motorhomes 😂 

Have you ever asked? Don’t ask, don’t get.

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