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Woodentop

Unicorn Seville S4 noseweight

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30 minutes ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

There's standard equipment and standard equipment.

 

I bought a new Lunar dealer special in 2013, a 2012MY van, it had lots of extra bits and pieces including ATC, heavier steadies, more lights, bigger Heki, alarm, etc, etc. The plated MIRO was exactly the same as the standard Quasar model it was based on. Obviously the extra stuff weighed more but the MTPLM was the same too, so I had a van that was 'special' but had a smaller available payload than the standard spec van it was based on.   

 

The statutory plate is a requirement of EU Type Approval Regulations which are the same throughout the current EU and will probably be adopted by the UK when we Brexit.

 

I'm not sure you've got the correct wording for the certificate and Lutz has cast doubt on the certificates issued by UK manufacturers as they seem to ascribe some form of Type Approval authority to the NCC, who are not an authorised Type Approval Certification body.   Most UK manufacturers appear to use a Luxembourg based approvals agency.  

 

But do you need a statutory plate if the caravan is only to be sold within the UK (Today or tomorrow)

 

Not interested in all the fudge of this and that specials.   Caravan manufacturers state the MRO as at when the caravan leaves the factory with its basic equipment, (Meaning nothing that's an optional purchase) and not including fresh or flush water.

 

What about a chassis weight plate, is this not a requirement to be issued by AL-KO or any other chassis manufacturer,  as listed on my Bailey Unicorn COC certificate ? 

 

 

 

Edited by Silverback

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54 minutes ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

There's standard equipment and standard equipment.

 

I bought a new Lunar dealer special in 2013, a 2012MY van, it had lots of extra bits and pieces including ATC, heavier steadies, more lights, bigger Heki, alarm, etc, etc. The plated MIRO was exactly the same as the standard Quasar model it was based on. Obviously the extra stuff weighed more but the MTPLM was the same too, so I had a van that was 'special' but had a smaller available payload than the standard spec van it was based on.   

 

The statutory plate is a requirement of EU Type Approval Regulations which are the same throughout the current EU and will probably be adopted by the UK when we Brexit.

 

I'm not sure you've got the correct wording for the certificate and Lutz has cast doubt on the certificates issued by UK manufacturers as they seem to ascribe some form of Type Approval authority to the NCC, who are not an authorised Type Approval Certification body.   Most UK manufacturers appear to use a Luxembourg based approvals agency.  

 

And when were statutory weight plates required 2014 maybe or later if the caravan was an existing model already in production. What's your average caravan model life span . . 3 years maybe and any plating issued during this "transitional period" was voluntary.  

Edited by Silverback

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50 minutes ago, Silverback said:

 

Or to your theory the stated MRO could be minus 5 percent.

The allowance for MRO is +/- 5%.  Fact not theory.    I have never read of a caravan being less than 5%.  So my theory is the manufacturers game the MRO

 

Do you need the statutory plate if the caravan isn't sold outside of the UK ?

Yes, because it is referred to as an EU regulation it has been adopted into UK law.  

 

From 2014 with every weight plate upgrade or downgrade a new certificate of conformancy is issued.  

Conformity to what?

 

To be honest I really can’t be bothered anymore.    It’s like debating with someone who thinks the earth is flat.   Life’s just too short and I don’t have the energy.  

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Silverback said:

 

But do you need a statutory plate if the caravan is only to be sold within the UK (Today or tomorrow)

 

Not interested in all the fudge of this and that specials.   Caravan manufacturers state the MRO as at when the caravan leaves the factory with its basic equipment, (Meaning nothing that's an optional purchase) and not including fresh or flush water.

 

You need a statutory plate, just like a car, wherever it's sold within the EU. It has to comply with EU Type Approval regulations and UK caravan manufacturers still don't seem to understand that some five years on.

 

A MIRO is rather like a car's kerbweight. You'll hardly ever come across a car that weighs exactly what the manufacturer declares as kerbweight. The MIRO is a notional figure, a peg in the ground on which to add the allocated payload and come up with the MTPLM, which should be a defined figure which the van should never exceed. 

 

The problem is the UK makers don't like the idea of adopting the Continental method of marketing vans.  If you look at any Continental manufacturer's weights you'll see that the MTPLM is normally a 100kg figure. You look at UK MTPLM's and the figures are all over the place.

 

The Continentals define their MIRO for a van, look at what would be a sensible Payload and then make the MTPLM the next 100kg point above. They may fit an even heavier axle and offer an upgrade of an additional 100kg and they may even offer an upgrade to an even heavier axle than that, giving another 100kg. That means that Continental vans generally get much larger payloads than UK vans and can upgrade much further but their MTPLM's are not kept artificially low to encourage sales to 'B' licence holders. Indeed it could be argued that Continental van makers pressurise 'B' licence holders towards getting their 'B+E' and thereby help improve the quality of towed driving on the roads. 

 

By contrast UK makers define their van's MIRO in just the same way but then use the NCC's formula to work out the minimum payload they can offer with a van. This is then added to the MIRO to produce the allocated MTPLM. They then look for the next higher weight axle that will handle that MTPLM and that's what they fit. You could say that UK manufacturers fudge their payload provision in order that their vans look light and more appealing to 'B' licence holders. You could also argue that they are doing all road users a disservice by not pressurising more 'B' licence holders to take their '+E' test.

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11 minutes ago, fred said:

 

 

Your calculation of my user payload was a theory from your assumptions . . . .. Very Simples  . .. So the feeling is Very Mutual 😁

Edited by Silverback

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6 minutes ago, Silverback said:

 

And when were statutory weight plates required 2014 maybe or later if the caravan was an existing model already in production. What's your average caravan model life span . . 3 years maybe and any plating issued during this "transitional period" was voluntary.  

 

Type Approval for caravans came into law for the 2013 Model Year. By 2014 it had already been running 15 months. I don't know if there was any transitional period for existing models as manufacturers had had years to prepare and I've not seen any post 2013 van without a gas locker plate fitted. 

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4 minutes ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

 

Type Approval for caravans came into law for the 2013 Model Year. By 2014 it had already been running 15 months. I don't know if there was any transitional period for existing models as manufacturers had had years to prepare and I've not seen any post 2013 van without a gas locker plate fitted.  

 

No it was October 2014 . .

Edited by Silverback

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10 hours ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

 

Type Approval for caravans came into law for the 2013 Model Year. By 2014 it had already been running 15 months. I don't know if there was any transitional period for existing models as manufacturers had had years to prepare and I've not seen any post 2013 van without a gas locker plate fitted.  

 

The breakpoint was actually already 29 October 2012 for completely new designs. On 29 October 2014 it became mandatory for existing designs, too.

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We took delivery of our new Seville 2 weeks ago and I must check the nose weight.   Our mover is in front of the axle and we are using a 7. 5 kg safefill in the gas locker.   We asked the dealer for the weight upgrade as part of the deal.    We take it away next week and when it's on  level ground I'll get the milenco guage out.

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Well we’ve just purchased a Seville s4 inc weight plate change to 1500kg mtpl and can confirm I will struggle to get anywhere near 75-80 kg nose weight.

i asked the dealer before buying about what items where included in the miro and they said the battery!

also asked about the nose weight they said it would be fine. ......

went to move my caravan last Friday and it tipped up at the rear!

yes you can load your van to get better noseweight but to me kitchen stuff goes in the kitchen and food goes into the fridge and cloths the wardrobe which leaves bedding under the front seats.

loaded like this I can lift the hitch with one hand easily!

so I’ll be discussing the issue with the dealer and an e mail to Bailey.

otherwise the caravan suits us fine.

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2 hours ago, Leakylunar said:

Well we’ve just purchased a Seville s4 inc weight plate change to 1500kg mtpl and can confirm I will struggle to get anywhere near 75-80 kg nose weight.

i asked the dealer before buying about what items where included in the miro and they said the battery!

also asked about the nose weight they said it would be fine. ......

went to move my caravan last Friday and it tipped up at the rear!

yes you can load your van to get better noseweight but to me kitchen stuff goes in the kitchen and food goes into the fridge and cloths the wardrobe which leaves bedding under the front seats.

loaded like this I can lift the hitch with one hand easily!

so I’ll be discussing the issue with the dealer and an e mail to Bailey.

otherwise the caravan suits us fine.

The battery is not included in the MIRO so the dealer is telling porkies.   We carry food and clothes in the vehicle to prevent us exceeding the MTPLM of the caravan.   Maybe loading it with clothes, bedding, food etc is taking it over the MTPLM and affecting the nose weight as it does sound as if the caravan is seriously over loaded towards the rear of the axle if it tips up on moving it.

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In our Delta, everything heavy has to behind the axles to try to get the noseweight DOWN to below 100kg. We even put our box of tinned food (5 kg?) in the end bathroom to help.

Looks like you need to load the other way around!

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The 2 berth U4 Seville is the only U4 layout where the gas locker is behind the axle. Therefore it is liable to be tail heavy, especially as the kitchen is right at the back too.

 

As said the battery is not included in MIRO, so you can draw you're own conclusions as to the dependability of the dealer's advice.

 

The only way to overcome the inherent weight issues of the design is to minimise rear loading and maximise front loading. If that means illogical placing of articles that has to be preferable to unbalanced and potentially dangerous loading.

 

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MIRO detail from Bailey relating to the Valencia which is going to be similar:

 

"You have an allowance of 17kg which is included in the MRO for, gas bottle (10kg) toilet fluids (3kg) pitch lead (4kg)

The Glycol within the heating system has been included. Also all items included in the brochure have been included in the MRO."

Edited by a18041967

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Think things will be better next weekend as we’ll be taking awning which I’ll place as near the front as possible also all beer n booze under front bed we’ll go from there.

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3 hours ago, Leakylunar said:

Think things will be better next weekend as we’ll be taking awning which I’ll place as near the front as possible also all beer n booze under front bed we’ll go from there.

 

. ..and exceed the MTPLM?

 

14 hours ago, Leakylunar said:

Well we’ve just purchased a Seville s4 inc weight plate change to 1500kg mtpl and can confirm I will struggle to get anywhere near 75-80 kg nose weight.

i asked the dealer before buying about what items where included in the miro and they said the battery!

also asked about the nose weight they said it would be fine. ......

went to move my caravan last Friday and it tipped up at the rear!

yes you can load your van to get better noseweight but to me kitchen stuff goes in the kitchen and food goes into the fridge and cloths the wardrobe which leaves bedding under the front seats.

loaded like this I can lift the hitch with one hand easily!

so I’ll be discussing the issue with the dealer and an e mail to Bailey.

otherwise the caravan suits us fine.

 

That's interesting. How come you have *weight plate* change showing 1500Kg when the legal plate in the gas locker says 1450Kg and the axle is also rated only 1450Kg?

 

Otherwise I agree that the van is fine - apart from:-

N/S bed collapsed due to lack of support at front end - support that is present on the O/S. Bailey asked dealer to find solution!!

Seat cushions both sides have started to collapse (replaced u/w)

Front O/S window - possible to get fingers through at bottom in closed position - lock plate moved

Blind frame on N/S side windows became detached at bottom - both sides. Filler inserted into holes and new screws fitted

Front N/S reading lamp failed in first few days (inc USB) - replacement was different LED colour. Replaced by another fitting from a new caravan in showroom.

Both locker doors over N/S wheel fell off and kept falling off due to too short screws holding hinge to frame (15mm) - replaced with 22mm or 25mm (what I had to hand) and fixed problem

Bathroom door and its hinge panel are not in line and door is thinner than frame so leaving a view into the bathroom**

Badly warped bathroom door - as was the door on demonstrator. Two new doors from Bailey

Mains inlet cover that flaps in wind and makes noise - disturbing at night.**

Aerial outlet (or external input) that is essentially unprotected from weather

Too much bare wood around toilet waste container - what if container overflows?

Part open catch on fridge door broke first time used - replaced

Fly screen on door not sealing when it use due to badly fitted (bent) trim on catch side - trim remounted

Will only take a 2m porch awning due to position of windows and significantly curved awning rail front and back. We think it will be impossible to fit a full awning unless made to measure.

 

I have to say our dealer has been superb and everything (so far) has been fixed - but what else will happen one wonders? Is it right that I should pay almost £24K and get this sort of poor quality/design? (Don't forget the stupid bathroom layout. ....)

 

**To cover the bathroom door hinge gap get a strip of the the same plastic strip used to cover the gap between the wardrobe doors. 1. 9m piece £5. 99+delivery (almost £13 total) from Bailey;     £3. 75+VAT delivered next day from Hafele for a 2. 5m piece. You will need  3mmx15mm countersunk screws.

Stop the flap flapping by putting a loop of Velcro tape over the flap and under the connector.

 

Oh as I promised, the maximum noseweight we can get having weighed every single item of payload and pushed as much as possible forward is 53Kg.   After weighing van on a weighbridge we have 35Kg left for fridge food and clothes.   (The answer to your question is gold bars. .......) But as 53Kg is on the car one could argue that gives us 88Kg?

 

Whew!

Edited by Woodentop

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16 hours ago, bubble2015 said:

In our Delta, everything heavy has to behind the axles to try to get the noseweight DOWN to below 100kg. We even put our box of tinned food (5 kg?) in the end bathroom to help.

Looks like you need to load the other way around!

We found that by having the nose weight at about 105kg on our Lunar it was a dream to tow with hardly any pitching.   Considering that the noseweight can change between zero and over 200kgs I didn't think that 5kg would make any difference if the vehicle was capable.

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On 12/01/2018 at 16:02, Woodentop said:

Anyone else other than me got one of these yet and tried checking the noseweight? When we got the van home from the dealer with the only extras fitted being a battery (25Kg about 1ft behind the axle) and motor mover 30Kg about 1ft in front of the axle) the noseweight was 32Kg.

The gas box is N/S/R corner and is designed to take 2x6Kg.  

How the heck am I supposed to get 80Kg or more on the nose?

Our first new caravan was a Perle Olympus from Avondale and the ex-works noseweight on that was zero - yes you read right zero, zilch, nowt, nothing! The caravan was perfectly balanced such that when empty if I removed the jockey wheel from the A-frame the caravan would tip backwards. BUT this was perfect as by the time I had added a couple of gas cylinders and a spare wheel to the front locker, a sensible noseweight was achieved. Adding a little more clutter such as the fresh water Aquaroll and waste water container, together with levelling ramps and wheel chocks and, "Hey presto" the noseweight was 98kgs. I couldn't have asked for better and the caravan was towed all over the UK and the continent and remained as stable as ever under all conditions. We had the caravan five years and the only costs during that time was for the the annual servicing, and a set or tyres - not because of age but because I wore them out in about three years because of the high mileage covered.

Gordon

 

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2 hours ago, Durbanite said:

We found that by having the nose weight at about 105kg on our Lunar it was a dream to tow with hardly any pitching.   Considering that the noseweight can change between zero and over 200kgs I didn't think that 5kg would make any difference if the vehicle was capable.

 

".....between zero and over 200Kgs. ..."

 

Eh? Explain please.

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Sorry should of said dealer told me 1500kg mtpl which gives 260 kg load, but although it was on the order form it never arrived so now waiting for it to be sorted.

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On 23/07/2018 at 10:55, Woodentop said:

 

".....between zero and over 200Kgs. ..."

 

Eh? Explain please.

Okay between zero and +250kgs?  This is probably how the much noseweight would change while towing on a road.

  • Confused 1

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5 minutes ago, Durbanite said:

Okay between zero and +250kgs?  This is probably how the much noseweight would change while towing on a road.

 

I would love to see how you work the maths out on that one - or is it just a guess?

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1 minute ago, Woodentop said:

 

I would love to see how you work the maths out on that one - or is it just a guess?

I don't think you need any knowledge of maths to work that one out as surely it is common sense that the nose weight will fluctuate while towing especially on a bumpy road?

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On 22/07/2018 at 22:09, Woodentop said:

 

Will only take a 2m porch awning due to position of windows and significantly curved awning rail front and back. We think it will be impossible to fit a full awning unless made to measure

Good info on the bathroom door 'gap' many thanks.

A Sunncamp 220 (2. 2m wide) will fit (just) with the sides tucked behind the plastic window surrounds. 240v socket is in a poorly thought of position. 487B194E-9DD7-44C3-88BC-D841180F3C86.thumb.jpeg.70072a535b16ee9a28a3ea0a447c0c4c.jpeg3EE6C317-952E-4AE4-9D37-C467837438B7.thumb.jpeg.9b275d199cbbc96adb677acbc78b3a55.jpeg

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4 hours ago, AndyT said:

Good info on the bathroom door 'gap' many thanks.

A Sunncamp 220 (2. 2m wide) will fit (just) with the sides tucked behind the plastic window surrounds. 240v socket is in a poorly thought of position.  

 

The mains inlet is not so much poorly thought out, it is just downright cheap. Some caravans (even Baileys) have the inlet behind a cover that hinges up and has side plates to prevent ingress of water - exactly the same as the old mains outlet except it had a blue fixed plug rather than a 13A socket.

 

Going back on the thread and the list of items that Bailey include in MRO, what about the spare wheel and (as already mentioned) the solar panel, the Tracker battery (a couple of kilos) and ATC? These items are (AFAIK) fitted as standard on all Unicorns so why are they (apparently) omitted from the MRO?

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