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Legal Eagle

Two Plates on my Wagon, the Sequel

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6 minutes ago, Lutz said:

If the manufacturer is willing to uprate a caravan there is no logical reason why he shouldn't have provisions for downplating, too.

Trouble is that after a few years they lose interest in either up or downplating and they say 'tough'. Maybe there should be an NCC 'rule' that all members offer lifetime weight adjustment capability. 

Blimey a sow just flew past the study window, in the snow.

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It seems really weird that Continental caravan manufacturers get by with just one plate and are able to upgrade as desired according to market demand, often by as much as 200 to 300kg, despite being faced with the same issues regarding B and B+E licences and the same type approval requirements. It seems that the UK caravan industry is just making life difficult for itself with the NCC meddling around in their business.

Edited by Lutz
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1 minute ago, svimes said:

Is it time for bed yet?

 

I thought you were Nightwatch Vimes?

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4 minutes ago, Lutz said:

It seems really weird that Continental caravan manufacturers get by with just one plate and are able to upgrade as desired according to market demand, often by as much as 200 to 300kg, despite being faced with the same issues regarding B and B+E licences and the same type approval requirements. It seems that the UK caravan industry is just making life difficult for itself through the NCC meddling around in their business.

Ah yes bit we are British, and if there's a rule, we will follow it to the enth degree! ☺

 

I joke a little. It's more probably to do with how caravans have been sold historically. Try coming over here and asking for a higher rated axle, you'll be laughed out of the showroom!

Edited by Simple Life

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2 minutes ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

I thought you were Nightwatch Vimes?

Used to be. I'm more international diplomacy these days. And it's been a long week in the respect,I can tell you

Oh for the feel of cobbles through cheap boots. ..

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1 minute ago, Simple Life said:

Ah yes bit we are British, and if there's a rule, we will follow it to the enth degree! ☺

Funny, Germans always had a reputation for bowing to authority. I can't see where they are bending the rules in any way, though.

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5 minutes ago, Lutz said:

Funny, Germans always had a reputation for bowing to authority. I can't see where they are bending the rules in any way, though.

No not bending the rules.  

I would lay a small wager, that the same type of caravan is presented for approval but maybe several versions,  Version A has axle 123, Version B has axle 456, etc. So which ever version you buy of the same type, the manufacturer has approval.

Over here we the buying public have been trained to not ask for too much. This is the product if it's not what you want then buy something else!

Edited by Simple Life

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5 minutes ago, Simple Life said:

Over here we the buying public have been trained to not ask for too much. This is the product if it's not what you want then buy something else!

I'd amend that slightly.

This is the product, if it's not what you want you won't find anything different because we all sell the same.

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2 minutes ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

I'd amend that slightly.

This is the product, if it's not what you want you won't find anything different because we all sell the same.

I don't know what it is following on from your posts but another one lost.

I posted and I still am,

 

I'm chuckling now, your absolutely right. 😅😅😑

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17 minutes ago, Simple Life said:

I would lay a small wager, that the same type of caravan is presented for approval but maybe several versions,  Versiob A has axle 123, Version B has axle 456, etc.

Exactly, that's how it works over here. MTPLM's are nearly always set at the maximum that the technical parameters will allow. An upgrade will therefore usually involve a technical modification of some sort. If it were only a matter of providing new documents to cover the upgrade one would argue that the base version before upgrade is unnecessarily costly because it contains components which are overengineered for the lower MTPLM. No manufacturer would bother with upgrades of less than 100kg because they feel that the benefit gained is not worth the effort.

Edited by Lutz

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13 minutes ago, svimes said:

Used to be. I'm more international diplomacy these days. And it's been a long week in the respect,I can tell you

Oh for the feel of cobbles through cheap boots. ..

A cigar and a tot of Bearhuggers will see you right. Sorry, I forgot, forget the whisky.  

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Lat's face it, if it weren't for the NCC, two plates are entirely unnecessary. They serve no useful purpose other than to confuse. If the manufacturer wants to make his product attractive to Category B driving licence holders he should simply supply the caravan with a downplated statutory plate with the option of upplating to the max. type approved MTPLM should the customer so wish. If the NCC feel that is important to display information that is not to be found on the statutory plate, such as tyre size and wheel torque, then by all means add a second plate but without duplicating information that is already on the statutory plate anyway.

The way things are at the moment with two plates with differing MTPLM's the manufacturer is taking money out of people's pocket to replace a plate that has no legal standing in the first place. Money for nothing. It would cost no more to replace the statutory plate and then I would know what I am paying for.

Edited by Lutz

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I would not single out the B licence restriction particularly as the reason for the minimising of the MTPLM, as powerful argument I feel is "our" affinity here with the "Golden 85%".

Sadly,  given the size and facilities we seek these days in our UK vans it lumbers us with IMO unworkable payloads, and that in turn must result in many overloaded vans.

Unless your "life managers" are a great deal more receptive to accepting that we can't put all that stuff in there, "we are only going off for a few weeks, not relocating home"!;)

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Just another note on the side. An owner of a UK caravan wishing to take it permanently to France, for example, would have to register it there. The French licensing office would need the Certificate of Conformity and go by the details shown there. They would not accept an NCC certificate because it has no reference to vehicle type approval. A case like that would make the NCC plate and certificate worthless.

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10 hours ago, Simple Life said:

I'm guessing I'm a young wipper snapper compared to you, wasn't it the case that older vans didn't really have chassis as the separate affairs we have now?

And I would have thought the towable mass of cars pretty poor too.

The structure of caravans changed dramatically in the late '70 / early '80s - earlier they'd been built on a massive girder frame, with a full wooden frame and then panelled inside with wood, loose insulation in the gaps, aluminium skin on the outside and heavy float/tempered glass windows - manufacturers dates varied but they swiftly changed to the lightweight Alko wishbone chassis, bonded sandwich ply/foam/aluminium side/end walls and plastic windows, close to the structures now despite the grand names and addition of bonded roofs.

By the time I bought my foam sandwich '83 Ace Pioneer, a mid-price 5-berth at 600 kg unladen weight, 850 kg gross weight and 14' (4. 2m) body length, I towed it with an '80 Ford Escort mk2 1. 6 87 bhp with kerbweight 954 kg (full tanks, no driver) and 1060 kg towing limit - by the modest performance of family cars at the time it was more than respectable, especially as the short-lived uplift in towing speed limit from 40 to 50 was still in place, subject to not exceeding 100% of kerbweight otherwise still 40 - it was later increased to 60 without the 100% qualifier.

In those days, the Caravan Club recommended 80% towing ratio for all caravanners.

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13 hours ago, Black Grouse said:

?? How on earth do you think we managed in the '80s with 850kg gross caravans on car tyres? And much lighter towcars in those days too.

The weather wasn't any better - although it sometimes seems that way.

Back then those lightweight vans were mainly very much shorter than modern vans, I had two 12ft 5 berth vans from that period.

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4 minutes ago, Stevan said:

Back then those lightweight vans were mainly very much shorter than modern vans, I had two 12ft 5 berth vans from that period.

So were the cars!

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16 minutes ago, Black Grouse said:

So were the cars!

Those were the days! Live rear axles and crossply tyres.

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46 minutes ago, Stevan said:

Those were the days! Live rear axles and crossply tyres.

And drum brakes without servo's.

My first car, had cross-ply tyres and no tread as regulations hadn't come in then - still coped better with snow/ice than modern cars, or is it modern drivers?

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3 hours ago, Black Grouse said:

The structure of caravans changed dramatically in the late '70 / early '80s - earlier they'd been built on a massive girder frame, with a full wooden frame and then panelled inside with wood, loose insulation in the gaps, aluminium skin on the outside and heavy float/tempered glass windows - manufacturers dates varied but they swiftly changed to the lightweight Alko wishbone chassis, bonded sandwich ply/foam/aluminium side/end walls and plastic windows, close to the structures now despite the grand names and addition of bonded roofs.

By the time I bought my foam sandwich '83 Ace Pioneer, a mid-price 5-berth at 600 kg unladen weight, 850 kg gross weight and 14' (4. 2m) body length, I towed it with an '80 Ford Escort mk2 1. 6 87 bhp with kerbweight 954 kg (full tanks, no driver) and 1060 kg towing limit - by the modest performance of family cars at the time it was more than respectable, especially as the short-lived uplift in towing speed limit from 40 to 50 was still in place, subject to not exceeding 100% of kerbweight otherwise still 40 - it was later increased to 60 without the 100% qualifier.

In those days, the Caravan Club recommended 80% towing ratio for all caravanners.

That's brilliant,  a little before my time, not by much but just enough.

I had a conversation only yesterday with a younger workmate that went something along the lines of.

Him, Bloody amazon, I ordered a traditional alarm clock and they have not delivered it 

Me, Clockwork? 

Him, Yes it will.

Me, No is it clockwork? 

Him, Yes it will work

Me, No does it take battery's? 

Him, Yes.

Me, Then it's not clockwork

Him, What do you mean?

 

The young man had absolutely not a clue what a clockwork mechanism was! I suppose why would he, so even the humble spring loaded engine has been sent to the bin of history!

Edited by Simple Life
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First car reminisce.

1938 Morris 8 4 seater tourer

  •  no heater
  • soft top with screw on fabric and plastic side screens
  • could see the road below through gaps in ply floorboards
  • ignition key the shape of a tiny spade
  • single wiper blade driven by solid metal box on top of windscreen, just where your frontal lobe would be in an accident 
  • windscreen that went horizontal if you were daft enough
  • try bends too fast and the outside rear wheel lifted high in the air
  • SU fuel pump that was female (sorry)
  • half shafts made of cheese straws
  • brake shoes that bound and melted grease in hub
  • blanket to try and keep warm
  • double declutch into first gear on any slope steeper than 1:8.

Those were the days

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15 hours ago, Lutz said:

 It seems that the UK caravan industry is just making life difficult for itself with the NCC meddling around in their business.

 

As they did with the bulkhead regulator requirement. ..........................................;)

Edited by beejay
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15 hours ago, Lutz said:

It seems really weird that Continental caravan manufacturers get by with just one plate and are able to upgrade as desired according to market demand, often by as much as 200 to 300kg, despite being faced with the same issues regarding B and B+E licences and the same type approval requirements. It seems that the UK caravan industry is just making life difficult for itself with the NCC meddling around in their business.

The British caravan has two plates, one to conform to eu directives and placed in the locker, this one is for the engineers (he'll notice this while he's hiding).
The second one usually by the door is for owner, this is a British idea so it's accurate, and its the one that matters. :)

 

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30 minutes ago, Paul_B said:

The British caravan has two plates, one to conform to EU directives and placed in the locker, this one is for the engineers (he'll notice this while he's hiding).
The second one usually by the door is for owner, this is a British idea so it's accurate, and its the one that matters. :)

 

Only British caravans made by manufacturers that are members of the NCC have two plates (and by accounts from thebriars, Elddis don't have two plates any more despite being members). There is absolutely no need for that second plate. It only serves to confuse if the details don't agree with those on the statutory plate.

Edited by Lutz

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4 hours ago, Lutz said:

Only British caravans made by manufacturers that are members of the NCC have two plates (and by accounts from thebriars, Elddis don't have two plates any more despite being members). There is absolutely no need for that second plate. It only serves to confuse if the details don't agree with those on the statutory plate.

is that because there isn't room in their lockers for an engineer :mellow:

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