Alde Radiator Fan

[fred]

On 27/11/2017 at 20:42, David P said:

I have done it, see my post.

Blow Air System For Alde Heating.

I used 50mm 12v computer fans & grills. One fan fitted in the end bathroom, pulling hot air out of the wood effect covering for the heat emitter. Our caravan has a side dinette, another fan fitted there to assist hot air flow. Fans, grills, fuse holders, fuses, & cabling all purchased from Amazon.

I spoke to an Alde Teck person at the caravan show of my intended mod and he agreed that it could work!

It does work and I am happy with the result.

I find it heats up quickest on Gas, there is simply no substitute for Kilowatts

[Black Grouse]

3 minutes ago, fred said:

I find it heats up quickest on Gas, there is simply no substitute for Kilowatts

Heating up the coolant is one thing - heating up the caravan interior takes much longer.

[David P]

Why I fitted the fans is simple. When sat up the front of the caravan the temperature is comfortable, when you walk down the caravan towards the bathroom and when in the bathroom it was noticeably cooler. As Alde wet system is not area controllable. I don't think you can balance it like you can at home as its a single pipe system. Unlike blow air where you have diverters and flaps to allow air volume to flow at different rates. (I also modified a blow air system in this manner)

So I thought after seeing the Alde mods in their catalogue, also their prices, I can achieve the same at a fraction of the cost, and be able to control the temp via a single speed led indicator switch, which turns the fan on and off.

[SamD]

1 hour ago, David P said:

Why I fitted the fans is simple. When sat up the front of the caravan the temperature is comfortable, when you walk down the caravan towards the bathroom and when in the bathroom it was noticeably cooler. As Alde wet system is not area controllable. I don't think you can balance it like you can at home as its a single pipe system. Unlike blow air where you have diverters and flaps to allow air volume to flow at different rates. (I also modified a blow air system in this manner)

So I thought after seeing the Alde mods in their catalogue, also their prices, I can achieve the same at a fraction of the cost, and be able to control the temp via a single speed led indicator switch, which turns the fan on and off.

You have just reminded me that I do have a control valve which appears to be there to isolate the underfloor heating.   Someone on this forum was going to get his Dutch friends to translate his manual for this (I don't have one) but perhaps he has forgotten (I did!!)  I have not tried using it for fear of causing air lock problems - must speak to Alde and ask them for help on this.

[SamD]

1 hour ago, Black Grouse said:

Try running Gas and electric together for 30 mins - the 8kw combined output will soon warm all the coolant up.

Good point

[fred]

1 hour ago, Black Grouse said:

Heating up the coolant is one thing - heating up the caravan interior takes much longer.

 Assuming you have sufficient convectors then 5 or 8kW beats 3kW.  That’s physics. Obviously if you have a system where more thought has  been  devoted to the positioning of the Alde badges rather than the convectors then that’s marketing.  

As I previously posted I am satisfied with the rate of warm up from cold of our caravan.  

[Black Grouse]

5 minutes ago, fred said:

 Assuming you have sufficient convectors then 5 or 8kW beats 3kW.  That’s physics. Obviously if you have a system where more thought has  been  devoted to the positioning of the Alde badges rather than the convectors then that’s marketing.  

As I previously posted I am satisfied with the rate of warm up from cold of our caravan.  

Once the coolant is heated up, the kw output of the convectors and/or radiators is the limiting factor - it's under 2kw for some caravans and rarely over 3kw.

[fred]

Alde give recommendations for minimum amounts of convector on their website as follows

10m^2 area 3kW of convector that is 7. 5m length of convector, 12m^2, 4kW, 10m length, 15m^2, 5kW, 12. 5m length.   Need to get the tape measure out.  

http://www. alde. co. uk/design. php

[Black Grouse]

1 hour ago, fred said:

Alde give recommendations for minimum amounts of convector on their website as follows

10m^2 area 3kW of convector that is 7. 5m length of convector, 12m^2, 4kW, 10m length, 15m^2, 5kW, 12. 5m length.   Need to get the tape measure out.  

http://www. alde. co. uk/design. php

It's not just convector length - there needs to be a proportionate area of ventilation for cold air in and warm air out.

[fred]

2 hours ago, Black Grouse said:

It's not just convector length - there needs to be a proportionate area of ventilation for cold air in and warm air out.

Obviously!

I merely quoted what Alde suggest as minimum values.   If you follow and read the link then you can assess how well your own model meets those criteria or not.

[SamD]

On 29/11/2017 at 20:50, David P said:

Why I fitted the fans is simple. When sat up the front of the caravan the temperature is comfortable, when you walk down the caravan towards the bathroom and when in the bathroom it was noticeably cooler. As Alde wet system is not area controllable. I don't think you can balance it like you can at home as its a single pipe system. Unlike blow air where you have diverters and flaps to allow air volume to flow at different rates. (I also modified a blow air system in this manner)

So I thought after seeing the Alde mods in their catalogue, also their prices, I can achieve the same at a fraction of the cost, and be able to control the temp via a single speed led indicator switch, which turns the fan on and off.

 

Old thread but could you let me know if your 50mm fans which seem a lot smaller than the Alde system ones are up to the job and are you just using one for each rad?  I would also be interested in mounting arrangements and noise levels.

I have made improvements with air flow since this thread started but have just found (after taking the back from front chest of drawers) that I have a rad there which is completely enclosed bottom sides and front - madness!

[KontikiKid]

Our last motorhome had two built in fans - "genuine" Alde parts - think they are around £40. They only really help move heat around once the system is hot.

 

We used to leave ours on all the time, on the thermostat. Same as house central heating, serviced and checked, so used accordingly.

 

Russ

[fred]

I think that the genuine Alde kit has a convector with more tightly packed fins, than the normal convector.  This makes sense as fan can push the air through rather than relying on passive convention.  I can’t remember the last time we have used fan in anger.  We did find a err feature of the fan when we took the van out last January.  We got to site and the battery was completely flat, fortunately we were on Ehu.  Turns out on the last trip one of us must have caught the fan switch, it is positioned so this easy to do.   And when the 12v in the van is switched off the fan stays live really useful!?

[SamD]

1 hour ago, fred said:

I think that the genuine Alde kit has a convector with more tightly packed fins, than the normal convector.  This makes sense as fan can push the air through rather than relying on passive convention.  I can’t remember the last time we have used fan in anger.  We did find a err feature of the fan when we took the van out last January.  We got to site and the battery was completely flat, fortunately we were on Ehu.  Turns out on the last trip one of us must have caught the fan switch, it is positioned so this easy to do.   And when the 12v in the van is switched off the fan stays live really useful!?

 

That's fine Fred, thanks but there are many, many different vans with manufacturer's own take on provision and layout.

My problem is that I have only just discovered (yes after a year or so!) that I have a large double running across about 2/3rds of the bulkhead.

I really did not know that rad was there as it's not visible and gives off no heat.   Looking towards the front bulkhead from inside the van, I have:

1. The Adle boiler extreme right and less then a couple of inches from bulkhead.   This takes up the space from the wall to the centre chest of drawers.
2. On the left (nearside) and fully forward, I have an outside locker which is fully panelled inside and the left panel (looking from outside the van) abuts the bulkhead.
3. Behind that panel and the chest of drawers is a double rad of considerable length with no air circulation possible at all for the leftmost couple of feet and very little behind the chest.

I really could not believe that I did not know about it nor that Vanmaster would design such stupidity!

[solarpower]

I am surprised Vanmaster made such a error, but when I bought our 2013 Swift the first comment I made was the lack of vents at the front of the van to allow the Alde to work correctly. Swift assured me that it was installed to Alde recommendations  , there was a small gap under the bottom of the bed locker door but with the carpet down the gap is blocked.  

We collect our new van in March, same layout and still no fixed vents so I am going to fit some aluminium vents in the bed locker doors and a false floor in the one where we keep the bedding.

Edited November 11, 2018 by solarpower

[JCloughie]

My previous Bailey had a rad in this position but did have outlet vents and worked well.   Current Lunar likewise.   This has a continuous outlet behind an edging strip at the front edge of the front shelf.   However Durbanite reports that earlier Lunars had restricted venting and his was fixed by Lunar.

 

Have you removed the chest of draws to inspect fully?  It might be that you will be able to create some air movement.   Suggest you have a look at some new vans to see how they have done it for inspiration.   Unless of course you still have a way to complain to your dealer.

 

John

[SamD]

The Chest is fixed i. e. jointed and would be a major headache to get out.   I am fairly convinced that a couple of fans would draw sufficient air but that's why I re-started this thread hoping David P's experience would help in determining the amount of air to be shifted.

The other reason why I think fans are the only way for me, is that the upper air gap i. e. between wall and seat back is half  inch at most.

[fred]

@SamD   What age is your VM.   My friends was 2009 ish, he had it from new and it was adapted for disabled use.  To be honest not much evidence that Vanmaster had much idea of what they were doing.  He had the Alde boiler corrode through as well, which was expensive to fix.  

Ps My comment about not using the fan in anger, is both true relating to our use and a through away line. The fact that the fan isn’t isolated when the 12v is off is an act of stupidity on Hymer’s part.  

[JCloughie]

1 hour ago, SamD said:

The Chest is fixed i. e. jointed and would be a major headache to get out.   I am fairly convinced that a couple of fans would draw sufficient air but that's why I re-started this thread hoping David P's experience would help in determining the amount of air to be shifted.

The other reason why I think fans are the only way for me, is that the upper air gap i. e. between wall and seat back is half  inch at most.

That’s surprising.  On all the vans I have looked at just two screws and the whole chest lifts out.  Made that way for servicing, easy construction, and often to switch between chest and seat option.

 

John

[David P]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 09:55, SamD said:

 

Old thread but could you let me know if your 50mm fans which seem a lot smaller than the Alde system ones are up to the job and are you just using one for each rad?  I would also be interested in mounting arrangements and noise levels.

I have made improvements with air flow since this thread started but have just found (after taking the back from front chest of drawers) that I have a rad there which is completely enclosed bottom sides and front - madness!

Yes they work. I am not looking for a forced air flow! But to give the convection effect a little boost. No more noise than a blow are system. In the summer I ran them to give a cooling effect, when we had those hot nights.

As I posted we have a side dinette, the table stops the hot air from rising, causing condensation on the window, with the fan running it reduces the condensation. I have thought of fitting a 100mm fan, but I don't think we will keep the caravan much longer (time for a change). will I do it on the next one, properly yes I would.

I used a hole saw to cut the holes. I removed the panel and fitted the fans onto the back out of sight. using screws, long enough to go through the 4 holes on each corner, but only long enough to go into the wood, not through it. Then finished off with fan grills on the outside, to stop little fingers. (Grandchildren)

It works for my, and I will put it to the test this coming weekend, probably our last outing away for 2018 and maybe this caravan!

Edited November 11, 2018 by David P

[SamD]

Thanks David - very useful.   The following shows why I was getting no heat at all from the large double front rad - first 2 pics show the external locker and the third is the centre chest minus drawers

 

 

[Black Grouse]

The Alde output in my 2013 Lunar Clubman ES, as delivered, was abysmal - the large double convector across the front and smaller ones in the two front bed boxes had nowhere for cool air to enter and only at 10mm gap behind the ventilation boards for the warm air.

 

Having complained to the dealer, Lunar and Alde, I designed some modifications to improve things - after examining the caravan, Alde agreed with my suggestions and Lunar paid the dealer to carry them out.

 

The ventilation boards were removed and replaced with thicker battening to give a 20mm gap - the storage recess under the chest of drawers had its sides cut away to allow air into the two bed boxes - this improved things but I'm now planning to add a pair of 140mm fans, one to each cutaway to increase the airflow.

 

Looking at those pictures, I'd suggest using the opening for the lower drawer as an air grill to get air to the centre section of the front convector, cutting openings in the blank panels covering the outer sections of convector and cutting openings in the bedbox to be fitted with a fan each side.

[David P]

I said I would put it to the test this last weekend. This is an account?

 Setting up the caravan (CCMC Broadway), water on board I powered up the Alde system selected 2Kw and Gas, with a temp of 26c, also turned both fans on, also skylights tweaked and all cupboards/lockers open to allow the hot air to circulate and any moisture to escape. (Each fan has its own led indicator isolation switch), then went to Evesham Morrisons to get some food and other essentials . On return the caravan was like toast, turned heating down to 21. 5c, Alde set to 1Kw and gas set to off and that is where it stayed for the duration, when in the caravan! 

The fan in the bathroom is wired up so it pulls air across the heating matrix. Putting my hand about 4" above the fan and the air flow was hot. The second fan in the dinette area, works the other way and forces air across the matrix and out of the grills. When I internally insulated the wheel arches, I also blocked off the open end of this panel void, so air has no where else to go but out of the grills. It works but I think a 100mm would be better, in this area, as a small amount of condensation found in the morning!

Very pleased with the result.

[SamD]

On 18/11/2018 at 21:07, David P said:

I said I would put it to the test this last weekend. This is an account?

 Setting up the caravan (CCMC Broadway), water on board I powered up the Alde system selected 2Kw and Gas, with a temp of 26c, also turned both fans on, also skylights tweaked and all cupboards/lockers open to allow the hot air to circulate and any moisture to escape. (Each fan has its own led indicator isolation switch), then went to Evesham Morrisons to get some food and other essentials . On return the caravan was like toast, turned heating down to 21. 5c, Alde set to 1Kw and gas set to off and that is where it stayed for the duration, when in the caravan! 

The fan in the bathroom is wired up so it pulls air across the heating matrix. Putting my hand about 4" above the fan and the air flow was hot. The second fan in the dinette area, works the other way and forces air across the matrix and out of the grills. When I internally insulated the wheel arches, I also blocked off the open end of this panel void, so air has no where else to go but out of the grills. It works but I think a 100mm would be better, in this area, as a small amount of condensation found in the morning!

Very pleased with the result.

 

Wow, I can only dream of that speed of warm-up!  Because I had a couple available, I used these at £3 each!! and they did not work well at all.    I mounted them on velcro on the van wall under the rads so I could move them about to test best position  i. e. blowing vertically or at an angle across multiple fins.    In use they cooled the fins of the double rads which might have resulted in hot air coming out but not so because, in essence, the air-flow was too great - kept the fins cool on 3kw.

Many thanks for your feedback - I would be interested to hear which fans you used and how mounted if possible.

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, SamD said:

 

Wow, I can only dream of that speed of warm-up!  Because I had a couple available, I used these at £3 each!! and they did not work well at all.    I mounted them on velcro on the van wall under the rads so I could move them about to test best position  i. e. blowing vertically or at an angle across multiple fins.    In use they cooled the fins of the double rads which might have resulted in hot air coming out but not so because, in essence, the air-flow was too great - kept the fins cool on 3kw.

Many thanks for your feedback - I would be interested to hear which fans you used and how mounted if possible.

I would have thought that these were too fast (and probably noisy) - you should be increasing the volume of air passing the fins rather than trying to blast it through. Try a 4" computer case fan