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dexterlevi

Rejecting my new Elddis

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On 02/12/2017 at 10:48, dexterlevi said:

Firstly poor quality checks prior to leaving the factory.  

I don't think any manufacturer does quality checks at the factory due to the number of caravans being produced every day.   Physically they do not have the manpower or the time which is why they leave it to the dealer to do a proper PDI however we know that this does not happen on numerous occasions!

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46 minutes ago, Durbanite said:

It is an inherent fault which was there from day one.   Read and understand the CRA 2015!

Professionally it's been read and understood and we know about the inherent bit (including that after 6 months the consumer has to prove a found fault is inherent) but none of us can find a reference in the CRA 2015 that mentions 6 years cover as you state. Please enlighten us as to the Section and sub-section.

May be it's just the case that you had one successful claim and now consider yourself qualified to advise all and sundry then revert to sarcasm when challenged.

Edited by Legal Eagle
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5 hours ago, Legal Eagle said:

Professionally it's been read and understood and we know about the inherent bit (including that after 6 months the consumer has to prove a found fault is inherent) but none of us can find a reference in the CRA 2015 that mentions 6 years cover as you state. Please enlighten us as to the Section and sub-section.

May be it's just the case that you had one successful claim and now consider yourself qualified to advise all and sundry then revert to sarcasm when challenged.

I could be wrong but I think this is what Durbanite is referring to

(taken from Which Legal Services website) 

 

If you bought a product that was faulty at the time of sale, then returned it to the retailer, you're legally entitled to:

A full refund, provided it's within a reasonable time of the sale. Guidance on what's meant by a 'reasonable time' was not provided by the legislation prior to the Consumer Rights Act 2015, but it was often quite short. For instances before the act came into force, each case would have to be looked at individually. Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, you have 30 days from the date you receive the goods in which to return them and get a full refund.  This allows you a short time to examine the goods and try them out, but you must tell the trader about the fault as soon as you discover it. If you're seeking a full refund but the trader doesn't accept it, it will be up to you to prove that there's something wrong with the goods.  

A reasonable amount of compensation (or 'damages') for up to six years from the date of sale (five years after discovery of the problem in Scotland). This doesn't mean that all goods have to last six years. The economic life expectancy of any product is difficult to determine, as price is not always an accurate guide to durability. Most products can be expected to last a reasonable period of time but considerations such as price, quality, usage and the environment in which the product is used must be taken into account. The six year limitation period is the limit for making a legal claim in respect of a fault that was present at the time of sale. It's not the same as a guarantee.

 

If a fault appears within six months of buying goods, the trader must accept that the goods were faulty at the time of sale and either repair or replace them. If the trader doesn't accept that the goods were faulty, they will have to prove that the goods were satisfactory at the time of sale.

If you've had your goods for more than six months when they show fault, you can still ask the trader to repair or replace them, but you may have to prove that they were faulty when you bought them if the trader doesn't agree.

You can ask for a repair or replacement at any time up to six years after you bought the goods (five years in Scotland), as long as it's reasonable to expect them to have lasted this long. Remember there needs to be a fault that was present on the day of sale even though it only became apparent later on, or a misdescription of the goods, or a lack of durability that suggests the goods were not of satisfactory quality to start with.

If the goods fail after six years (or five in Scotland), you no longer have the right to ask for a repair or replacement.

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Yes any repair under the cra oct 2015 is then covered for 6 years. I was told this by my local CAB back in jan 2016. so i asked if it went wrong again in 3 years time im covered"yes fully" was the reply.

Edited by smino0_1

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12 minutes ago, towman said:

I could be wrong but I think this is what Durbanite is referring to

(taken from Which Legal Services website) 

 

If you bought a product that was faulty at the time of sale, then returned it to the retailer, you're legally entitled to:

A full refund, provided it's within a reasonable time of the sale. Guidance on what's meant by a 'reasonable time' was not provided by the legislation prior to the Consumer Rights Act 2015, but it was often quite short. For instances before the act came into force, each case would have to be looked at individually. Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, you have 30 days from the date you receive the goods in which to return them and get a full refund.  This allows you a short time to examine the goods and try them out, but you must tell the trader about the fault as soon as you discover it. If you're seeking a full refund but the trader doesn't accept it, it will be up to you to prove that there's something wrong with the goods.  

A reasonable amount of compensation (or 'damages') for up to six years from the date of sale (five years after discovery of the problem in Scotland). This doesn't mean that all goods have to last six years. The economic life expectancy of any product is difficult to determine, as price is not always an accurate guide to durability. Most products can be expected to last a reasonable period of time but considerations such as price, quality, usage and the environment in which the product is used must be taken into account. The six year limitation period is the limit for making a legal claim in respect of a fault that was present at the time of sale. It's not the same as a guarantee.

 

If a fault appears within six months of buying goods, the trader must accept that the goods were faulty at the time of sale and either repair or replace them. If the trader doesn't accept that the goods were faulty, they will have to prove that the goods were satisfactory at the time of sale.

If you've had your goods for more than six months when they show fault, you can still ask the trader to repair or replace them, but you may have to prove that they were faulty when you bought them if the trader doesn't agree.

You can ask for a repair or replacement at any time up to six years after you bought the goods (five years in Scotland), as long as it's reasonable to expect them to have lasted this long. Remember there needs to be a fault that was present on the day of sale even though it only became apparent later on, or a misdescription of the goods, or a lack of durability that suggests the goods were not of satisfactory quality to start with.

If the goods fail after six years (or five in Scotland), you no longer have the right to ask for a repair or replacement.

You are misunderstanding the questions I posed and the reasons behind it. It was stated by Durbanite, specifically, that the CRA 2015 provides 6 years cover. I asked him to provide the Section and Sub-section of the 2015 Act to substantiate his statement. You seem to have misunderstood that. I (professionally) understand law.

All civil actions have a time limit from the date of the event depending on the type of action e. g. personal injury claim, damages for libel/slander, compensation for breach of an ordinary contract and so on. The time limits are set by the Limitation Act 1980 which pre- dates CRA 2015 by some 35 years! The CRA 2015 provides no timed cover because legislation already exists. To say otherwise is completely incorrect and deliberately misleading. Damage claims for breaches of an ordinary contract (e. g. faulty goods) are actionable for 6 years from the date of the event in England & Wales and 5 years in Scotland. Other actions have less time some more e. g. breaches of a Deed (for property) are actionable for 12 years from the date of the event.

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8 minutes ago, smino0_1 said:

Yes any repair under the cra oct 2015 is then covered for 6 years. I was told this by my local CAB back in jan 2016. so i asked if it went wrong again in 3 years time im covered"yes fully" was the reply.

Nothing within the CRA 2015 provides any such cover, guarantee or otherwise but, as explained in my previous post, you would be able to to take out an action (sue) for compensation for up to 6 years after the event (5 years in Scotland) but by virte of the Limitation Act 1980 and not any consumer law.

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Well (Non proffessionally ) will ring CAB tomorrow as i have a quote number from them about the 6years cover for faulty repairs. This was stated to me in i think feb Within the 6 months) 2016 shortly after the new act came about. So if they are wrong and they have given me wrong advise. Could i make a claim from them for proffessional mis conduct. as ive had to do within recent times with a solicitor. As i only accepted a repair due to the fact they told me i was cover for 6 year(which is then a good cover if it fails again).or i would have rejected it back then.

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Sorry to hear you had such a bad experience, we rejected 2 Bailey caravans last year. The finish was so so poor we were shocked. I know these vans are hand made but there is no excuse for poor workman ship. We are paying a lot of money for new vans, dealers and manufacturers have to be made to be more responsible! 

We got free legal help from the caravan club and they were fantastic, do not hesitate to call them.

Good luck, do not even consider giving them yet another chance, they didn’t bother fixing it the first time why would they do a better job this time round.

I would never buy a new van again, our current Bailey Cadiz 2017 is lovely but we have just been told they need to replace the whole side panel due to a problem with the oven! We reported this problem 7 months ago and were told it was nothing and they replaced the panel inside behind the cooker. What a joke, they now have to take the van apart.

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14 minutes ago, smino0_1 said:

Well (Non proffessionally ) will ring CAB tomorrow as i have a quote number from them about the 6years cover for faulty repairs. This was stated to me in i think feb Within the 6 months) 2016 shortly after the new act came about. So if they are wrong and they have given me wrong advise. Could i make a claim from them for proffessional mis conduct. as ive had to do within recent times with a solicitor. As i only accepted a repair due to the fact they told me i was cover for 6 year(which is then a good cover if it fails again).or i would have rejected it back then.

Quote from your Which? link

You have six years to take a claim to the small claims court for faulty goods in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and five years in Scotland.  

This doesn't mean that a product has to last six years - just that you have this length of time in which to make a claim if a retailer refuses to repair or replace a faulty product.  

As I previously explained, this is not contained with the CRA 2015. Also note it refers to taking an action if the retailer refuses to repair or replace, not if the repair or replacement fails again.

Tell the CAB that you understand your rights of repair, replacement or refund under CRA 2015 but can they tell you exactly which Section provides or refers to 6 year cover. Remember CAB are not legally qualified advisors, they are a network of around 300 independent local charities across England and Wales.   Their services are provided by 23,000 trained volunteers and 7000 paid staff.

You'll have to speak to your solicitor for advice, bearing in mind CAB are not professional practitioners, they are unpaid advisors.

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Going back to the op decision of weather to wait for the new van or take his money and run. if he takes his refund, isnt he entitled to compensation for expenses and inconveniences caused by the faulty goods.

Quotes from which. ..

You're entitled to a full or partial refund instead of a repair or replacement if any of the following are true:

the cost of the repair or replacement is disproportionate to the value of the goods or digital content

a repair or replacement is impossible

a repair or replacement would cause you significant inconvenience

the repair would take an unreasonably long amount of time.

So with the op asking politely for good will guestures,i think Elddis and dealer are being harsh and not undeerstanding the impliment it may cause later on. He asked for £500 in goods that would not cost Elddis rrp prices yet if the OP seeks compo they could end up paying more. As with Ians case of 8%  of what £33k ? I know what id be doing. ...

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18 hours ago, Legal Eagle said:

Professionally it's been read and understood and we know about the inherent bit (including that after 6 months the consumer has to prove a found fault is inherent) but none of us can find a reference in the CRA 2015 that mentions 6 years cover as you state. Please enlighten us as to the Section and sub-section.

May be it's just the case that you had one successful claim and now consider yourself qualified to advise all and sundry then revert to sarcasm when challenged.

Nope I have more than one successful claim and I am not reverting to sarcasm as there is no need.   I don't beat around the bush as I do not know how to be PC, but I am using advice from a solicitor who specialises in Consumer law.   Your input is truly appreciated but please do not get upset just because someone may challenge you on a point of law.   There is no need as all you need to do is post a link to prove your point and the other person can then learn from it.

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12 hours ago, Legal Eagle said:

You are misunderstanding the questions I posed and the reasons behind it. It was stated by Durbanite, specifically, that the CRA 2015 provides 6 years cover. I asked him to provide the Section and Sub-section of the 2015 Act to substantiate his statement. You seem to have misunderstood that. I (professionally) understand law.

All civil actions have a time limit from the date of the event depending on the type of action e. g. personal injury claim, damages for libel/slander, compensation for breach of an ordinary contract and so on. The time limits are set by the Limitation Act 1980 which pre- dates CRA 2015 by some 35 years! The CRA 2015 provides no timed cover because legislation already exists. To say otherwise is completely incorrect and deliberately misleading. Damage claims for breaches of an ordinary contract (e. g. faulty goods) are actionable for 6 years from the date of the event in England & Wales and 5 years in Scotland. Other actions have less time some more e. g. breaches of a Deed (for property) are actionable for 12 years from the date of the event.

I (professionally) understand law.

Can you state your proffession?

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28 minutes ago, smino0_1 said:

I (professionally) understand law.

Can you state your proffession?

Legal Eagle offers very good advice however I think their expertise may lie elsewhere, however it must be remembered that although they may say one thing and us another ultimately we are both probably agreeing.  

The difference is that LE has a better understanding and puts it across in more legal terms creating confusion.   LE is correct about the Limitations Act and while he views it as totally different legislation to us mortals it is part of CRA 2015 so in an obscure way both of us are technically correct.   The Limitations Act 1980 is mentioned in CRA 2015 on several different occasions.

In essence this means that after 6 months if there a dispute with the supplier, it is up to consumer to prove that the fault existed at time of manufacture or is an inherent fault.   To my way of thinking if a caravan ends up with damp in the 4th year, it is an inherent fault and you should be able to claim even if the caravan was never serviced.   As far as I am aware, annual servicing is not a requirement for CRA 2015 or even SOGA so that should not be an issue or a reason for the dealer to reject the repair, but there may be some sort of clause covering this.

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5 hours ago, smino0_1 said:

I (professionally) understand law.

Can you state your proffession?

The legal profession.

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5 hours ago, Durbanite said:

Legal Eagle offers very good advice however I think their expertise may lie elsewhere, however it must be remembered that although they may say one thing and us another ultimately we are both probably agreeing.  

The difference is that LE has a better understanding and puts it across in more legal terms creating confusion.   LE is correct about the Limitations Act and while he views it as totally different legislation to us mortals it is part of CRA 2015 so in an obscure way both of us are technically correct.   The Limitations Act 1980 is mentioned in CRA 2015 on several different occasions.

In essence this means that after 6 months if there a dispute with the supplier, it is up to consumer to prove that the fault existed at time of manufacture or is an inherent fault.   To my way of thinking if a caravan ends up with damp in the 4th year, it is an inherent fault and you should be able to claim even if the caravan was never serviced.   As far as I am aware, annual servicing is not a requirement for CRA 2015 or even SOGA so that should not be an issue or a reason for the dealer to reject the repair, but there may be some sort of clause covering this.

Everything I have read posted by Legal Eagle is in line with my understanding of the CRA, and I believe their expertise sits right in the middle of it.

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4 hours ago, Legal Eagle said:

The legal profession.

And that is being?

Edited by smino0_1

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23 hours ago, Legal Eagle said:

Nothing within the CRA 2015 provides any such cover, guarantee or otherwise but, as explained in my previous post, you would be able to to take out an action (sue) for compensation for up to 6 years after the event (5 years in Scotland) but by virte of the Limitation Act 1980 and not any consumer law.

Totally correct, the CRA 2015 doesn't give you addition cover at all but a window in which to claim legally if you think your goods should have lasted longer for the use they were purchased and that's all on the merits of the cost of the goods and usage. . Same old example of a £6. 00 hair dryer against a £600 washing machine and even the washing machine claim maybe rejected if it was misused domestically or used in a launderette or any other undesirable use such as washing ground sheets. :blink: :blink:

The issues with many caravans are justified a court visit in my opinion, especially when you read some of the disasters of purchasers, still cant understand why folks still seem to think the manufacture is also the one to approach for redress when they are not legally contracted to the purchase, anyone following this route for recompense will cope out for clouding any claim within a court.

Edited by Silverback

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1 hour ago, smino0_1 said:

And that is being?

A qualified practitioner now semi-retired, preferring to teach rather than practice but doing a little lucrative consultancy work once in a while.

Edited by Legal Eagle
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So i have a question for all of you who are savvy with the CRA and would appreciate your thoughts / advice.

We collected our new 2017 Cruiser in February.  Shortly after i noticed a number of small defects including damage to the inside of the off-side upright locker door.  These were all reported to the dealer when noticed about 2 weeks after collection.  It took over 3 months to get warranty claim approved.  The repair to the door was to remove the damaged part and replaced.  This proved to be not possible - something admitted by the Dealer later (so why they tried this repair was beyond me).  This was early June.  They then decided that the only course of action was to replace the door.  New door ordered and was eventually available for collection in September (Dealer service desk is poor).  Upon collection it appeared to be the wrong colour, we commented on this but was assured that it was the right colour so we took them at their word.  As soon as we offered it against our caravan it was obvious that it was the wrong one, took photos and took the wrong door back to the Dealer.  Explains to the Dealer that the door was the wrong colour, dealer comments that it's probably a batch issue so shows him the photo, 'oh, ok but lets try it up against one of other Buccaneers', it's obviously the wrong and so he concedes it's the wrong one.  Service Desk agrees to re-order it (end of September).  Have in the last week now been told that the door that was re-ordered was the wrong one.  I asked if i could swap my defective door with the same door on one of the display models (not a forecourt sales model), answer was no, i have to wait for another door.  So by my reckoning that's 10 months and 3 attempts they have had to correct this defect and so i am within my rights to reject the caravan?

I should add that we have other issues such as the front seat inserts going soft (changed once, 2nd set already showing signs of going soft after just 8 nights use) and now a couple of the the 'wallpaper jointing strips' are peeling off and the A Frame cover is coming away - and our van is a seasonal and so we've only towed it once.

Any advice / comments welcome and appreciated.

Third brand new caravan and we've had problems with all of them, i am beginning to think that buying a new caravan is not the way to go!

Alan

Edited by WelshAl

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11 hours ago, Legal Eagle said:

A qualified practitioner now semi-retired, preferring to teach rather than practice but doing a little lucrative consultancy work once in a while.

I think Smino0-1 was asking about your area of expertise as there are so many variations of the law.

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30 minutes ago, Durbanite said:

I think Smino0-1 was asking about your area of expertise as there are so many variations of the law.

That's not how I understood it. The question was, "What is your profession?" Nothing in that question about areas of expertise.

I was wondering if anyone else on here gets this sort of "grilling"?? :)

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Just now, Legal Eagle said:

That's not how I understood it. The question was, "What is your profession?" Nothing in that question about areas of expertise.

I was wondering if anyone else on here gets this sort of "grilling"?? :)

I would call it impertinent trolling.

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2 minutes ago, Legal Eagle said:

That's not how I understood it. The question was, "What is your profession?" Nothing in that question about areas of expertise.

I was wondering if anyone else on here gets this sort of "grilling"?? :)

Probably not, but your name is Legal Eagle and you do offer consumer advice.   In an earlier post I seem to recall that you did state your area of expertise was in another area however your understanding of the law and interpreting it is obviously different to other posters including myself, but at the end of the day we are probably on the same course.   I have no issue when you contradict me as I learn from your valued input.  

However when I question something, not just your posts, I tend to put it across as an "argumentative post" due to my style of writing when it is actually questioning the reasoning of the answer in a post so apologies if this upsets you.

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50 minutes ago, Legal Eagle said:

I was wondering if anyone else on here gets this sort of "grilling"?? :)

Only those that think they know better than you do.

Good reliable advice is not always forthcoming and is often a lay persons own interpretation of what they think, my best advice is just ignore them and keep up the good work. 

Thank you.

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