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Steamdrivenandy

Two Plates On My Wagon .........

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One of the themes that constantly recur on CT surrounds the subject of MTPLM. What it means and how it's applied etc.

 

Most recently there's been debate about whether the MTPLM published by manufacturer's in brochures, handbooks and on plates/stickers on the outside of their vans, is an enforcable legal limit, or whether the axle weight figures on plates that started appearing a few years back in gas lockers and the like, override the MTPLM.

 

Some CT members have been vociferous in insisting the latter is the legal limit and they've declined to pay for formal upgrades of their van's MTPLM on the basis that the axle limit overrides any weight, like the MTPLM, that the manufacturer may allocate.

 

So I thought that I'd approach the Tech Desk of the CMC for a definitive answer to this vexed issue. Sadly they couldn't provide an answer and referred me to the NCC. They've been very helpful in responding to my query and I'd like to thank David Reid and his colleagues for their help and for giving me permission to publish their responses.

 

I'm sorry for the length of this post but I thought it best to reproduce the correspondence in full:

 

'In recent years caravans appear to have sprouted an alloy label, usually inside the gas locker, which includes the VIN number and a number of weights. In design it looks very like the mandatory weight limit plates on cars. There is no real explanation of the purpose of the plate, either on it or in manufacturer's manuals.

 

It obviously features weights, but the largest weight is usually more than the van's standard MTPLM. One has to assume the higher figure is the limit of the axle and probably the amount that the MTPLM can be upgraded too, with the manufacturer's agreement and necessary documentation and a likely charge.

 

However some folk insist that because the gas locker plate has more info on it than the exterior plate or label and conforms with the format used by cars it is the statutory weight plate as far as the authorities are concerned and overrides whatever is written on the exterior label.

 

If this view is correct it raises a number of issues.

  1. Why have an MTPLM if the legal limit for a van is the axle weight limit?
  2. Why print a lower MTPLM in brochures/adverts/manuals when the axle limit is what will be relied upon by the authorities?
  3. Why is the higher limit hidden in a gas locker and why is it not clearly evident on the exterior of the van?
  4. If the MTPLM is an irrelevance as far as the authorities are concerned then are van manufacturers committing fraud selling upgrades to customers that aren't necessary to comply with the law?
  5. If the MTPLM is still relevant as far as the law is concerned, what is the purpose of this newish plate and how does the industry communicate it's relevance, so that owners don't unwittingly break the law.

Any clarification would be very welcome. '

 

Whilst waiting a response I rec'd a holding email and responded with this:
'Yesterday I came across a sentence in the CMC 2017/18 Handbook which sort of touches on this very issue. Bottom right of Page 646 talking about MTPLM/MAM and the weight plate '(usually mounted close to the entrance door but can be mounted anywhere on the external skin - some manufacturers are now mounting them inside the gas locker)'. So that phrase in the Handbook can lead to confusion, especially where there's both an external plate and a gas locker plate which don't match. No wonder the CMC Tech Dep't suggested I ask the NCC.

 

We do have several CT contributors who have noticed the inconsistency and have refused to pay their van manufacturer an upgrade fee because the gas locker plate shows a higher axle limit than their MTPLM. So it's a current issue for a relatively small number but might grow unless we can offer a robust explanation.'
Here's David's initial response:

'I have copied your email below and added some comments in red. I hope these are helpful. Should you have any doubt about this please feel free to contact me. I would appreciate it if you did not publish my direct contact details.

 

Kind regards,

 

David

 

In recent years caravans appear to have sprouted an alloy label, usually inside the gas locker, which includes the VIN number and a number of weights. In design, it looks very like the mandatory weight limit plates on cars. There is no real explanation of the purpose of the plate, either on it or in manufacturer's manuals.

The label that is frequently installed within the gas locker is the type approval plate: This plate is required for European Whole Vehicle Type Approval, National Small Series Type Approval or Individual Vehicle Approval. Each new trailer produced and used on the road in the UK since 2013 must be approved by ECWVTA, NSSTA or IVA.

 

It obviously features weights, but the largest weight is usually more than the van's standard MTPLM. One has to assume the higher figure is the limit of the axle and probably the amount that the MTPLM can be upgraded too, with the manufacturer's agreement and necessary documentation and a likely charge.

The label at the door of the caravan is provided by the manufacturer to demonstrate compliance with the requirements of the NCC Product Approval Scheme and is usually referred to as the “manufacturer’s weight plate,” whereas the label provided in the locker (or elsewhere) is for the type approval of the completed caravan. The label by the door is not required by regulation, however, it is the plate that is usually referred to by enforcement agencies as it is accessible without the need to open the lockers (which is a difficult area due to the caravan being residential accommodation). Because the label by the door is used by enforcement agencies the NCC advise that it should be kept up to date and not removed. We are aware of at least one case where enforcement action was taken by the DVSA where a touring caravan was loaded in excess of the MTPLM of the manufacturer’s weight plate despite being within the MTPLM shown on the type approval weight plate. Manufacturers usually charge a small fee for updating the manufacturer’s weight plate and associated paperwork if the end user wants to upgrade / downgrade to a higher / lower MTPLM.

 

However, some folk insist that because the gas locker plate has more info on it than the exterior plate or label and conforms with the format used by cars it is the statutory weight plate as far as the authorities are concerned and overrides whatever is written on the exterior label.

The type approval plate is the only plate that is required by regulation, however it should be noted that the manufacturer’s weight plate demonstrates that the van complies with the wider requirements of the NCC’s Product Approval Scheme and is usually used as the basis for any enforcement action by the police and DVSA. As part of the NCC’s Product Approval Scheme the manufacturer’s plate is used to demonstrate compliance with the NCC’s code of practice for touring caravan payloads (NCC CoP 304) that requires a greater payload than that found in the requirements of the type approval regulations. As stated above the enforcement agencies usually refer to the NCC label during compliance checks as this is the most accessible and straightforward way to get the required information about the caravan.

 

If this view is correct, it raises a number of issues.

 

  1. Why have an MTPLM if the legal limit for a van is the axle weight limit?

The weight limit for the caravan is the MTPLM not a sum of the axle limits. The weight plate by the door (manufacturer’s weight plate) is a requirement for NCC Product Approval. As explained above, for reasons of ease it is usually the plate referred to by enforcement agencies due to its accessibility. The upper limit for type approval purposes is the MTPLM published on the type approval plate. The MTPLM takes into account wider requirements such as the tow hitch, brakes, tyres etc. which wouldn’t be accounted for if you simply total the axle limits.

 

  1. Why print a lower MTPLM in brochures/adverts/manuals when the axle limit is what will be relied upon by the authorities?

A lower MTPLM is often printed on the manufacturer’s weight plate (and in accompanying sales and promotional literature) in order to ensure that the caravan can be matched with the widest possible range of tow-cars and is therefore accessible to the widest range of users. Some caravan manufacturers will type approve their caravans to more than one MTPLM (usually a maximum weight, a minimum weight to meet NCC requirements and a minimum to meet type approval requirements) – in this case you would usually find that the two plates (the type approval plate and the manufacturer’s weight plate) matched. Other manufacturers only type approve their caravans to the absolute maximum weight that they’ll allow and then simply use lower figures on the manufacturer’s weight plate to open up the range of tow-cars that can tow the caravan.

 

  1. Why is the higher limit hidden in a gas locker and why is it not clearly evident on the exterior of the van?

The manufacturer’s weight plate is designed to be easy to see as it gives information with regards to the NCC Product Approval Scheme and for day-to day use. The type approval plate is placed in accordance with the requirements of the type approval regulations.

 

  1. If the MTPLM is an irrelevance as far as the authorities are concerned then are van manufacturers committing fraud selling upgrades to customers that aren't necessary to comply with the law?

The manufacturer’s weight plate is generally used as a basis for roadside enforcement and therefore the NCC advise that the user should retain this plate and update it if required. We have been advised that should the manufacturer’s weight plate be missing during a roadside check the police or DVSA would usually refer back to generic weights given within manufacturers’ literature and websites or they would refer to the record held for that caravan by CRiS to determine the correct MTPLM. It is therefore essential that the manufacturer’s weight plate and the CRiS record are kept up to date especially where the caravan’s MTPLM has been upgraded. When a manufacturer’s weight plate is upgraded CRiS should be informed of the upgrade to ensure that the CRiS database reflects the upgrade undertaken.

 

  1. If the MTPLM is still relevant as far as the law is concerned, what is the purpose of this newish plate and how does the industry communicate its relevance, so that owners don't unwittingly break the law.

The MTPLM (as shown on the manufacturer’s weight plate and the CRiS record) is probably the single most important figure for a touring caravan user to know about their caravan. With regards to upgrades, unfortunately, there are costs associated with creating updated internal and customer paperwork and updated labels as each one needs to be individually created and recorded. There is no question of the caravan manufacturers profiteering from this exercise. Some manufacturers will not charge for weight plate upgrades made at the time of order.

 

We will ask the NCC’s technical panel for touring caravans and motorhomes to review the current labelling arrangements as it may be that greater clarity is needed if the caravan using public are becoming unnecessarily confused by the current practice of the industry.

 

Any clarification would be very welcome.

I hope that this answers your questions.'

 

I followed up with the following:

 

'Thankyou very much for your very comprehensive answer to my questions.
Having read, digested and hopefully understood your answers I'm still left with a query that I suspect you can clarify.
I understand your suggestion that law enforcement agencies would consult the 'manufacturer's plate' on the side of the caravan to access relevant weight information. This is what we on CT have always assumed, but from what you are also saying that plate complies with NCC regulations, not Type Approval and despite what it might think, the NCC is 'just' a trade association, not a government, or law giving authority. Therefore the NCC regulated plate surely cannot be considered to be a legally defining item in a traffic regulation case, although it may well fulfil the requirements of NCC rules on construction. Indeed if I understand your words correctly the fact that the 'manufacturer's plate' exists demonstrates compliance with NCC rules and that the NCC minimum payload formula is slightly tighter than that required under EU Type Approval regs. Of course it's a moot point whether any law enforcement agent would actually appreciate the subleties of that situation.
I guess it boils down to which figure would be accepted in a court of law as being the formal maximum gross amount that a caravan can weigh, a manufacturer's plate that doesn't fully comply with Type Approval requirements or a plate that does comply with those requirements but is relatively hidden away.'
David's further response was:
'The NCC are aware that Law Enforcement Agencies and DVSA carry out a substantial number of checks of tow car / caravan combinations each year. Where these checks are carried out those Agencies use the information provided on the manufacturer’s visible plate to establish any overload that there may be.

Where an overloaded caravan is found the vehicle combination’s further journey would be prohibited until such time as the combination falls within the allowable weight – in some cases detachment of the tow car to allow for it to continue to its destination and then return to offload excess weight from the caravan to the tow car has been implemented.

 

In the case of what was considered to be a serious overload, and transfer of load was not possible, then prohibition would be enforced. This process would only be used in the case of a serious overload and evidence would be presented to a Court. This evidence would include information obtained for the caravan, including the manufacturer’s plate information, tyre, axle and hitch capacities. If available, and where access to the ‘secured area of the caravan’ was obtained, then this may also include any information from the Type Approval plate.

 

I have taken some advice from the industry and those that have more experience of how enforcement is dealt with “on the ground” in writing this reply. I hope that this covers your remaining points.'

 

After some consideration of the responses I sent the following:
'Reading your latest response again David there still seems to be a 'grey' area.
If the matter went to Court, as you say 'evidence would include information obtained for the caravan, including the manufacturer’s plate information, tyre, axle and hitch capacities. If available, and where access to the ‘secured area of the caravan’ was obtained, then this may also include any information from the Type Approval plate. '
This is the crux of the matter, in that, surely, no judge would convict if the Type Approval plate evidence showed that the van was actually under the axle limit, even though it was above the MTPLM. Indeed it's likely that such a case would never go to Court as it probably wouldn't qualify as a 'serious overload'. In that case it renders the MTPLM worthless as an enforcable limit and really it only serves as a legally enforcable figure in the case of B+E driving licence restrictions where the total of GVW and MTPLM define the weight limit.
That being the case it must cast a shadow on the situation where you pay money to upgrade the MTPLM of a van, when legally it's not necessary if the van's axle weight is higher.
Or am I not seeing something?'
And finally David's last response, rec'd this morning:
'The NCC seeks to ensure, by its recommendations, that the ‘trailer combination’ that is in use does not represent a danger to both its user and also other road users. It is the responsibility of the person in charge of that combination that they comply with the various legislation that applies at the time.

 

The NCC’s recommendation is that the manufacturer’s weight plate and the CRiS registration should be kept up to date. This recommendation would obviously go alongside our recommendations to ensure that the caravan was adequately serviced / maintained and that replacement items such tyres should be carefully specified to ensure the continuing safety of the vehicle and combination etc.

 

If there were an incident or investigation that did end up in going to court the magistrate would consider ‘all’ the evidence presented, not individual items in isolation. The court would then interpret the law as they see fit. The NCC does not have the remit to interpret the law.

 

It is also important to consider that any non-compliance may render the combination as ‘outside of the conditions of insurance’ provided by their insurer.'

So there you have the whole correspondence, I'd be interested in your reactions and comments.

 

 

 

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Well done SDA, that is at least one of the many questions sorted. Good job.

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Well done SDA, that is at least one of the many questions sorted. Good job.

Don't bet on it!

knarf

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Another well done SDA!

I think I need to print this so I can read it properly (but won't be for a few weeks till we are home).

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While I appreciate SDA's efforts (polite AND persistent) I don't think we learnt much at all. The situation is not clear at all.

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Well done SDA for trying to extract a definitive answer from the NCC, but why do I get the feeling that the NCC is incapable (or unwilling) of giving straight answers to a straight questions? My lightbulb moment came when I read that the NCC has no legal standing, so the MTPLM must surely be only advisory in the eyes of the law. I also think that it is lamentable that the CMC refuses to pick up the torch on behalf of its members - but of course, they're members of the NCC so probably don't want to rock the boat.

 

As an aside, if you have your van retrospectively upgraded to a higher MTPLM, who is responsible for informing CRiS so that its database can be updated: you or the manufacturer?

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If I read all this correctly:-

 

I probably, but only probably, will not end up found guilty if I load my van up to the plate in the locker and it goes to court.

However, I stand a good chance of being seriously inconvenienced if I exceed the MTPLM on the plate by the door and happen to get caught in a random spot check, even though I may eventually get off.

 

Talk about the law being an ass!

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Still digesting it.

 

Well done anyway.

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For Type Approval absolutely correct Dave. but as I pointed out in my last email, I can't see a case going to court if the Type Appoval plate says that the axle weight is above the actual weight of the van.

 

As Stevan says, if you're found to be over the MTPLM on the Manufacturer's Plate on the side of the van at a roadside check then you're going to be severely inconvenienced, either convincing the authorities that the Type Approval Plate is relevant or explaining it in Court.

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Credit to David Reid for taking the time to answer in such detail, and to Andy for asking the questions.

 

But I agree with others on here: the central question is left without a clear answer. That is, which is of the two plated weights is the actual limit under the law? You would like to think that industry would have someone legally qualified to answer that question. So far, we don't seem to have an opinion from such a person.

 

David Reid describes in much detail the practice and considerations followed by enforcement agencies in checking compliance - and that is very useful to know. But just because that's what they do doesn't necessarily mean that's the law. Unless someone can enlighten us. ..

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So now that that particular issue has still not really been clarified, what about the issue of whether or not the axle limit includes the nose weight.

There is still a bone of contention about this issue too.

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For Type Approval absolutely correct Dave. but as I pointed out in my last email, I can't see a case going to court if the Type Appoval plate says that the axle weight is above the actual weight of the van.

 

As Stevan says, if you're found to be over the MTPLM on the Manufacturer's Plate on the side of the van at a roadside check then you're going to be severely inconvenienced, either convincing the authorities that the Type Approval Plate is relevant or explaining it in Court.

 

 

 

As said in my link the subsequent stage builder have to add their plate with the weight information .

 

 

Axle plate would mean nothing in law as the caravan builder sets the weights on his plate .

 

 

Dave

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You've been very thorough here SDA.

 

Seems to me the best option is to remove the weight plate sticker on the side of the van and if stopped refer to the plate inside the gas locker. Could one then be prosecuted for removing something which is not legally necessary?

 

 

Remember these responses are from the NCC's, a trade organisation run by the trade for the trade, and a rather muddled response at best. Note that they talk about serious overload. In that case both plates would be well overloaded, and the offender does deserve prosecution.

 

However, it does seem that the CMC are sadly lacking if they are not able to provide definitive advice. Other than running campsites are they really worth a candle? They ought to have been fighting the trade to rid us of the poor design/manufacturing of British caravans and confusing issues such as this.

Edited by thebriars
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Seems to me that there was one particular piece of text which if questioned would have settled the matter definitively:

 

"We are aware of at least one case where enforcement action was taken by the DVSA where a touring caravan was loaded in excess of the MTPLM of the manufacturers weight plate despite being within the MTPLM shown on the type approval weight plate."

 

Was that prosecution successful? If so, you've got your answer - external plate prevails. Similarly, if not, you also know. ..

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Can I also add one further point. The EC Certificate of Conformity for my caravan states:

 

Location and Method of Attachment of the Statutory Plates: Inside the gas locker.

 

Thus if stopped the side sticker is totally irrelevant.

 

Mind you, this certificate would appear to be nonsense:

 

Mass of vehicle in running order(kg) 1083kg

Distribution of this mass amongst the axles(kg) 1: 58 2: 988 (where is the other 37kg hiding?)

 

Technically permissible Maximum Masses

Technically permissible maximum laden mass: 1229kg

Technically permissible mass on each axle: 1: 1300 2: N/A

How does this loading match the distribution of masses shown above? Note it is axle 2 which carries most of the weight, and axle 1 appears to be the hitch.

 

Now for a further thought. As it is possible to have the weight plate on the side of the van uprated, and all that is done is to issue a new sticker and a new piece of paper, where is the legal justification for saying the lower rating sticker is overloading the van when it clearly isn't. I could understand it if the upgrading of the plate also required an uprated suspension fitting.

 

How long after Brexit will this silly directive be replaced?

 

Is it just me? If I'm taken to court I'm going to plead ignorance or insanity (probably both).

Edited by thebriars

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As said in my link the subsequent stage builder have to add their plate with the weight information .

 

 

Axle plate would mean nothing in law as the caravan builder sets the weights on his plate .

 

 

Dave

 

They do for Type Approval Dave, but no magistrate will convict if someone can prove the axle is capable of handling the higher weight. It would be totally illogical.

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I think this quote from David sums it up:

 

Other manufacturers only type approve their caravans to the absolute maximum weight that they’ll allow and then simply use lower figures on the manufacturer’s weight plate to open up the range of tow-cars that can tow the caravan.

 

Basically the lower weight plate is purely a marketing gimmick and has no effect on the fitness of purpose of the trailer.

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They do for Type Approval Dave, but no magistrate will convict if someone can prove the axle is capable of handling the higher weight. It would be totally illogical.

 

 

The caravan manufacturer Vin plate sets the legal axle weights ? Even if you have a 2000 kg axle plate limit and the caravan manufacturer plates on his Vin plate 1000 kg then the legal limit is 1000 kg .

 

The reason why only the caravan manufacturer can upgrade a caravan .

 

 

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave

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Ther's also the status of the weight plates in conjunction with your driving licence. The licence requires the MTPLM and GVW to be added together to decide whether the licence conditions are being met. 3500kg and you could be OK, 3501kg and you are not.

 

Even though you could be below those actual weights you may not be complying with the conditions of your licence, in which case you will not be insured either. Most insurers require the driver to hold a valid licence for the outfit that they are driving.

 

So a lower MTPLM would enable more people to tow without having to have a B+E licence.

Edited by matelodave

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Can I also add one further point. The EC Certificate of Conformity for my caravan states:

 

Location and Method of Attachment of the Statutory Plates: Inside the gas locker.

 

Thus if stopped the side sticker is totally irrelevant. Except that as the NCC suggest the authorities won't mess around inside for a figure, they'll opt for the exterior weight.

 

Mind you, this certificate would appear to be nonsense:

 

Mass of vehicle in running order(kg) 1083kg

Distribution of this mass amongst the axles(kg) 1: 58 2: 988 (where is the other 37kg hiding?) I've queried such discrepancies before with manufacturers and got gobbletydegook for an answer. They seem to select a noseweight figure at random, usually nowhere near a figure that would usually be used. Maybe they regard the 37kg as contingency that can be distributed between the two points. But it is silly and no words of explanation in handbooks or websites.

 

Technically permissible Maximum Masses

Technically permissible maximum laden mass: 1229kg

Technically permissible mass on each axle: 1: 1300 2: N/A

How does this loading match the distribution of masses shown above? Note it is axle 2 which carries most of the weight, and axle 1 appears to be the hitch. Seems you're supposed to balance the van on it's nosewheel

 

Now for a further thought. As it is possible to have the weight plate on the side of the van uprated, and all that is done is to issue a new sticker and a new piece of paper, where is the legal justification for saying the lower rating sticker is overloading the van when it clearly isn't. I could understand it if the upgrading of the plate also required an uprated suspension fitting. That's the point of my original enquiry. I suspect that MTPLM's only real use is for those who haven't got B+E licences where MTPLM is part of the qualifying weight. For those with B+E it serves no real purpose and the exhortations not to load the van over MTPLM is totally illogical and immaterial. It does also provide a sort of commercial platform on which to sell vans to those with lower weight cars. But overall it seems to introduce unjustified complication which if you dig deep enough is unsupportable. Maybe the whole regime needs rethinking.

 

How long after Brexit will this silly directive be replaced?

 

Is it just me? If I'm taken to court I'm going to plead ignorance or insanity (probably both).

The caravan manufacturer Vin plate sets the legal axle weights ? Even if you have a 2000 kg axle plate limit and the caravan manufacturer plates on his Vin plate 1000 kg then the legal limit is 1000 kg .

 

The reason why only the caravan manufacturer can upgrade a caravan .

 

 

Dave

 

I very, very much doubt that anyone would convict you on that basis if you could show the axle was plated at 2,000kg Dave. But, as I say, if you go that way you're risking inconvenience and the possibility of an expensive Court case to prove the point.

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It is often mentioned that the CMC and CCC members are not represented in this and other matters and the NCC is merely a trade organisation. So there is a clear commercial opportunity for a legal representative to make its professional services available to members of "another" body. I'm sure that if the clubs don't want to bother, someone else will. Would you want to pay a separate annual fee to a club who's sole purpose is to represent the interests of its members? I would.

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I very, very much doubt that anyone would convict you on that basis if you could show the axle was plated at 2,000kg Dave. But, as I say, if you go that way you're risking inconvenience and the possibility of an expensive Court case to prove the point.

 

As said the axle plate has no meaning as the caravan manufacturer is regulated that legally he has to fit a Vin plate with his name and Vin number and the weight information .

 

 

The same reason why motorhomes have a donor chassis Vin plate and the motorhome coach builder will add his plate and you always use the motorhome builders plate .

 

 

 

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave

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Can I also add one further point. The EC Certificate of Conformity for my caravan states:

 

Location and Method of Attachment of the Statutory Plates: Inside the gas locker.

 

Thus if stopped the side sticker is totally irrelevant. Except that as the NCC suggest the authorities won't mess around inside for a figure, they'll opt for the exterior weight.

 

SDA's quote.

 

We only have the NCC's word for this, and they are trying to justify a more than obscure stance. I'm quite sure they will refer to the gas locker sticker when you point them at it.

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Just to add a quickie,

 

The axle loading is fine to explain the load handling capability of the chassis.

 

But.

 

Maybe the MTPLM covers the bits and pieces stuck on it, as in structural strength of the actual caravan body.

 

Now I have the upgraded weight plate with a new NCC registration card to show that my vehicle the whole caravan is being used in accordance with the manufacturer instructions, without that sticker how would I prove this if I merely pointed to the chassis plate?

Edited by Simple Life

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