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milkymarsh

Should Dealers Insist On Towcars Leaving With Mirrors On

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As per topic. Saw a newish Nissan quashqia (spoils for the spelling) or new shape x trail pulling out of a dealer near me a new to them Pursuit. No mirrors on at all.

 

Question is does or should the dealer be responsible or insist on the owner taking that van onto the public highway in a legal manner? My personal view is that I believe they have a duty of care, but then again the owner of the new van should know the letter of the law.

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I agree with jetA1. It would be considerate of him to point out that mirrors are required, but he is not the police and ultimately it's not his job to control what the owner does or fails to do, much the same as I don't see him responsible for making sure that the towing vehicle is up to the job or not. It seems to me that too many owners rely on an obligation for others to provide advice without going to any trouble to inform themselves first.

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Advice is ok but it's down to the owner/operator. You can't legislate for stupidity.

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Advice is ok but it's down to the owner/operator. You can't legislate for stupidity.

Fair comment.

 

Geoff

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It's the drivers responsibility but the same can be said for towing weights for vehicles and driving licences entitlement and selling caravans over 7 m body length the driver should have done his homework ?

 

 

Dave

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In the case of wing mirrors, maybe just a printed handout of the legal position, then it is up to purchaser knowing what is required by law.

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I wouldn't expect them to check mirrors any more than, say, driving licences.

Edited by hp100425ev

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Can't see how it can be anything more than a courteous advisory, much like telling them the speed limit for towing is 60 or they should wear their seat belt.

 

Though I did have a dealer tell me once that he would not sell me a twin axle Lunar once because he felt the tow car match was not suitable despite it actually being a legal match.

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Why would or even should a dealer be interested in whether or not mirrors mirrors are being used? An opportunity to sell a another set perhaps but beyond that. ..?

 

When we bought our first van we were offered (and bought) a 'starter pack' which contained, amongst other things, a pair of mirrors which we immediately upgraded to Milenco Aero and still have and use now.

 

They also advised me that my then car was suitable to tow the caravan (sales guff) which technically it was but in real life, it wasn't. With such shabby but expensive advice one becomes a little inured to anything a dealer says :D

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The problem apart from selling and filling paper work many sale persons have not got a clue about vehicles let alone the law.

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When I picked up my new van a couple of years ago it was the first time I had ever towed. The dealers were very good in helping me hitch up and even screwed on my new Milencos for me. The driving mirror fell off 60 yards after we left their premises!! I learnt a lot that day :D

 

 

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When a dealer sells a caravan they should be checking your licence to ensure that they have not mis-sold you a caravan which you are not legally permitted to drive. My dealer explained this to me last year when we bought a new caravan from them. Clearly, their is a risk to the dealer that a customer could claim that they had been mis-sold. As far as ensuring that the driver complies with laws like rear view mirrors, there is no risk of the customer trying to claim that it was the dealers responsibility.

 

Regardless of this point, there are quite a few drivers of the larger vehicles disregarding the legal requirement for rear view. I suspect that there is some silly idea in their minds that having a vehicle so large means they don't need them. Last week on a cl our Volvo V70 was the only vehicle of 4 vehicles which used towing mirrors. The other 3 were 2x Discovery, 1 Range Rover. I don't think these vehicles would pass a rear view vision test.

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The 1st time I ever towed a caravan was in the late 1990's, we hired it, a small but brand new LMC, very nice. Having never towed a caravan before (although I did have a C+E licence at the time) and having zero clue about caravanning I just hooked it up to my Toyota Rav 4 (petrol) and off we went, Celle in Northern Germany to Barcelona via many French campsite en-route.

 

Since then, stupidity has become clarity and I would no longer. .......

 

A: Tow without mirrors

 

B: Tow with a petrol engine

 

Great fun though, no Sat Nav, no route plan, no awning, wife with no sense of direction, no idea of what to expect from campsites, no internet, no mobile phone, didn't realise how far it was but we survived :D

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As per topic. Saw a newish Nissan quashqia (spoils for the spelling) or new shape x trail pulling out of a dealer near me a new to them Pursuit. No mirrors on at all.

 

Question is does or should the dealer be responsible or insist on the owner taking that van onto the public highway in a legal manner? My personal view is that I believe they have a duty of care, but then again the owner of the new van should know the letter of the law.

 

Yes Yes Yes,otherwise they have aided and a abetted a traffic violation.

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Not a chance.

 

If I were a dealer (which I'm not) I would be very wary about offering advice about anything not directly concerned with the item I was selling. By which I mean its functioning and capabilities. Anything to do with how it's used and the legalities thereof are a minefield I would stay well clear of, for reasons of self-preservation if nothing else.

 

To do otherwise is simply giving the customer an opportunity to say he was badly advised. A gift in these stupidly litigious days.

 

He is in no way responsible for the actions of the stupid or careless or simply unprepared. ...he would be inadmissible as defence in any court, I suggest.

 

IMHO, we have come so far down the road of "he said it was ok, so it's not my fault" that people now seem to expect to be protected from anything by "somebody else".

 

We are the poorer for it.

 

AWL, given your very sensible strapline which I often wished I'd thought of I'm very surprised at your opinion :)

Edited by Coriolis

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When a dealer sells a caravan they should be checking your licence to ensure that they have not mis-sold you a caravan which you are not legally permitted to drive. My dealer explained this to me last year when we bought a new caravan from them. Clearly, their is a risk to the dealer that a customer could claim that they had been mis-sold.

 

It's none of his business to ask to see any personal documents although he could, as a matter of courtesy, point out what licence is required. Besides, one could be purchasing a caravan for someone else, so the customer's driving licence would be irrelevant. What one does with the caravan legally or illegally after one has bought it shouldn't be of any concern to the dealer.

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It's none of his business to ask to see any personal documents although he could, as a matter of courtesy, point out what licence is required. Besides, one could be purchasing a caravan for someone else, so the customer's driving licence would be irrelevant. What one does with the caravan legally or illegally after one has bought it shouldn't be of any concern to the dealer.

I like your response, but unfortunately it's the wrong answer. The dealer is directed by NCC to check this. Apparently it's part of a NCC procedure which many dealers now follow. I didn't like it at the time, but reluctantly complied and allowed them to read my licence. No sooner had the salesman got my licence in his hand, he popped out the back and photocopied it. I wasn't particularly pleased.

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As most dealers have an accessory shop on site as well; surely they are missing the opportunity for an extra sale?

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15-20 years ago I looked at a SH van. When I showed interest the first thing they did was to do a computer match. As this came out at over 85% (but still legal) they refused to sell it to me saying that that was the law. I have not been back there.


I agree with most of the responses above as it is ultimately the drivers/buyers responsibility. However, I believe the dealer should do some checks, these may be subtle, ie how long have you been towing, what size van have you towed before, Etc. So they can determine the buyers experience. They should then offer advice if the customer wants it. After all the dealer is supposed to be the 'expert' and the professional. And with the job comes responsibilities.

I do not think it is up to the dealer to stop the buyer, but they could say, you do know your not legal with that set up?

John

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I like your response, but unfortunately it's the wrong answer. The dealer is directed by NCC to check this. Apparently it's part of a NCC procedure which many dealers now follow. I didn't like it at the time, but reluctantly complied and allowed them to read my licence. No sooner had the salesman got my licence in his hand, he popped out the back and photocopied it. I wasn't particularly pleased.

 

 

Can't see where is is stated in the The NCC's Tourer Dealer Sales Scheme - Code of Practice

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Ern, wasn't aware of the NCC 'procedure' but imho it changes nothing. What they tell the dealer to do isn't necessarily something I care about. I've no issue if someone wants to offer advice but it's my choice to follow or not and is no defence if I'm pulled over.

 

On the licence copying issue I think the dealer breached the Data Protection legislation as he has no valid need to know your licence details. ...I'd have had a gentle word in his ear. ..

They can ask to see my birth certificate but that's none of their business either. Just because someone asks for information doesn't always mean he's entitled to receive it. ...it concerns me that a growing number of folks simply give stuff out because they assume it's legit. Not always the case and the looser one gets with information the more likely another scam takes root. ...

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Can't see where is is stated in the The NCC's Tourer Dealer Sales Scheme - Code of Practice

I've never seen that document before. It does include a check, but doesn't detail a check procedure . Possible an overzealous salesman covering his rear end. As I said, I wasn't too happy but reluctantly cooperated. The photocopying bit happened quickly and I told him off for it.

Ern, wasn't aware of the NCC 'procedure' but imho it changes nothing. What they tell the dealer to do isn't necessarily something I care about. I've no issue if someone wants to offer advice but it's my choice to follow or not and is no defence if I'm pulled over.

On the licence copying issue I think the dealer breached the Data Protection legislation as he has no valid need to know your licence details. . . .I'd have had a gentle word in his ear. . .

They can ask to see my birth certificate but that's none of their business either. Just because someone asks for information doesn't always mean he's entitled to receive it. . . .it concerns me that a growing number of folks simply give stuff out because they assume it's legit. Not always the case and the looser one gets with information the more likely another scam takes root. . . .

Agree completely. My wife and I were asked for Our post code and house number in Curries recently when we were buying a kettle! We told them to push off, and went to Asda and bought the same kettle For a fiver less. Ah well!

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If we are worrying about dealers making sure we have towing mirrors on, the next logical step would be that Caravan Site wardens should be saying that we should not be leaving a site without towing mirrors in place!

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If we are worrying about dealers making sure we have towing mirrors on, the next logical step would be that Caravan Site wardens should be saying that we should not be leaving a site without towing mirrors in place!

 

That might not be such a bad idea after some of the clowns that I have seen that have clearly just left a site with no mirrors and steadies down and cables trailing the road.

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