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Citroen Grand C4 Picasso 2.0 Hdi Egs


Alfie 24
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Hi,

 

Am looking to get the following car and just wondered if anyone has any experience with towing with it.

 

Is it any good? and what weight caravan can it quite easily tow?

 

Any answers would be appreciated

 

Thanks

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I looked at it before going for the x max. The major problem is the low maximum train weight which in my case would have meant that any weight loaded into the car would have to be removed from the van and vice versa.

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I have the six speed manual gearbox.

 

It's a pain going up hills at 60 mph, having to change down to 5th quite often when towing, so I wish I had gone for the EAT6 Auto instead.

 

When not towing, it is a nice drive, except for one thing, I cannot get the steering wheel to a comfortable position. It's either too high, or when lowered, too vertical, so my wrists ache. All down to my short arm and legs. :(

 

The brochure states that its maximum towing capacity is 1700 kgs. Not true it's 1400kgs.

 

Max train weight on mine is 3650kgs and the Gross Vehicle weight is 2250kgs, which leaves only 1400kgs, which is OK for my Orion and my licence, but for younger people that comes down by 150kgs to 1250kgs without taking the extra driving test.

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Alfie have just bought one for my Daughter ( needed to get 3 baby seats in rear,) loads of room and a nice car to drive - though we won't be towing with it. However we bought a pre- reg one from Arnold Clark and saved almost £10k on the list price (5 miles on clock) OK we had to go to Edinburgh to get it (500 mile round trip) but go save £10k. ..I think they still have a couple left. ...

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I looked at it before going for the x max. The major problem is the low maximum train weight which in my case would have meant that any weight loaded into the car would have to be removed from the van and vice versa.

That's the problem with all Citroens and I believe many cars available today,even Citroen head office have emailed me last week confirming that my car can tow 1500 kgs braked,but I now know different,proved after visit to weigh bridge,due to its low mgtw.

Their product dept. now refute my weighing figures,and it's currently with technical.

Promised reply later today,will post later. I am not giving up yet!

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The brochure states that its maximum towing capacity is 1700 kgs. Not true it's 1400kgs.

 

 

 

 

It is true in that it's the manufacturer's maximum towed weight and will always be subject to complying with the car's axle weights, Gross Vehicle Weight and Gross Train Weight.

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That's the problem with all Citroens and I believe many cars available today,even Citroen head office have emailed me last week confirming that my car can tow 1500 kgs braked,but I now know different,proved after visit to weigh bridge,due to its low mgtw.

Their product dept. now refute my weighing figures,and it's currently with technical.

Promised reply later today,will post later. I am not giving up yet!

Does that mean that after a visit to the weigh bridge you have found that with the nose weight and a 1500Kg van you exceed the GTW? or that you can't take a passenger as well as towing a 1500Kg trailer or 'van?

Edited by Guest
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Best of luck but I don't think it's going to be as easy as Bailey or whoever sending you a new sticker to stick over the old one and charging you 30 quid!

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Does that mean that after a visit to the weigh bridge you have found that with the nose weight and a 1500Kg van you exceed the GTW? or that you can't take a passenger as well as towing a 1500Kg trailer or 'van?

On weigh ridge car one passenger 75kgs one item 45 kgs low fuel=. 1910kgs

Caravan on its own, loaded for travel, =. 1475kgs

Plated mgtw. =. 3330kgs. Over by 55 kgs.

I have been emailing Citroen for four weeks now and they keep altering the figures.

Email received ten mins. ago,quote GVW,2130

GTW3330

Max braked trailer weight. 1500

If the customer wishes to tow max1500kgs. the weight of the vehicle must be limited to 1830kgs. ???

The weight of the vehicle is 1709 +-- 3% leaving 121kgs for passengers,luggage,fuel.

Either the weigh bridge is massively out or these figures are impossible to achieve.

As some of you know, as this has been on chassis,towcarmatch,and chat. My car is a Citroen ds5 dstyle,2ltr. hdi 160bhp. manual 2014

Comments appreciated as it's driving me barmy.

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On weigh ridge car one passenger 75kgs one item 45 kgs low fuel=. 1910kgs

Caravan on its own, loaded for travel, =. 1475kgs

Plated mgtw. =. 3330kgs. Over by 55 kgs.

I have been emailing Citroen for four weeks now and they keep altering the figures.

Email received ten mins. ago,quote GVW,2130

GTW3330

Max braked trailer weight. 1500

If the customer wishes to tow max1500kgs. the weight of the vehicle must be limited to 1830kgs. ???

The weight of the vehicle is 1709 +-- 3% leaving 121kgs for passengers,luggage,fuel.

Either the weigh bridge is massively out or these figures are impossible to achieve.

As some of you know, as this has been on chassis,towcarmatch,and chat. My car is a Citroen ds5 dstyle,2ltr. hdi 160bhp. manual 2014

Comments appreciated as it's driving me barmy.

 

I think you might be overthinking this somewhat, because I think you're not focusing on the key issue. You are so focused on trying to explain the apparent discrepancy in the mass of the vehicle that you seem unwilling to confront the reality that the GTW of the vehicle is too low to be able to holiday with your caravan unless you use the vehicle purely to tow the caravan and all other passengers and luggage travel separately.

 

There may well be nothing you can do about the GTW of the vehicle, assuming that Citroen's type approval does not permit them to increase the GTW above the current plated GTW, which I think is very unlikely. I don't believe that the likes of SvTech can increase the GTW of a car because the procedure they use is intended for multi-stage builds - a base vehicle that has been modified by a converter, such as a motorhome builder, and carries a second legal weight plate as a result. A car is not a multi-stage build.

 

 

Many manufacturers type approve a vehicle for a GTW that is the sum of the GVW and the braked towing limit. For example, my Mercedes V250d has a 3100kg GVW, a 2500kg braked towing limit, and a 5600kg GTW. I can tow at the braked towing limit whilst making use of almost the entire payload capacity of the vehicle, though must not exceed any axle weight limits and must remember to subtract the trailer noseweight from the GVW to arrive at the maximum mass of the vehicle without the trailer hitched up (as the noseweight is imposed on the vehicle). Unfortunately, Citroen have gone for almost the opposite approach in your case - a braked towing limit that leaves you with negligible payload. A driver and full fuel tank will be close to putting you over the GTW with your caravan.

 

A key lesson from this is that even if matching sites and caravan owners establish the existence of a match based on vehicle kerbweight, trailer MTPLM and GTW, it is crucial to establish that sufficient vehicle payload remains for the intended use of the vehicle.

 

 

I think you are focusing excessively on the apparent discrepancy in the vehicle mass. Citroen's calculations are correct: 3330kg GTW towing 1500kg trailer means the mass of the vehicle must not exceed 1830kg. If the vehicle ex-factory is 1709kg, that leaves you with 121kg for fuel, driver and any other passengers or payload.

 

Your weighbridge figure seems rather high for a 75kg driver, 45kg other payload and diesel fuel at around 0. 84kg per litre. I'm not entirely clear whether Citroen's figure allows for other essential fluids, such as engine oil, coolant and brake fluid - it depends whether Citroen are quoting a mass in running order which, under EU Regulation 1230/2012, includes these fluids, 90% fuel and a 75kg driver, or some other figure. Even if those fluids are included, there will inevitably be some fluctuation from vehicle to vehicle, depending on optional equipment and natural variation from vehicle to vehicle.

 

 

Whether you base your assessment on Citroen's figures or the less generous weighbridge figures, you really have insufficient GTW to tow your caravan. 1709kg car plus 1475kg caravan plus 75kg driver is 3259kg. Even if you are not exceeding any axle weight limits, you are within 71kg of the GTW. If Citroen are quoting MIRO, that figure excludes all factory fitted optional equipment including the approximate 25kg of tow bar and towing electrics. If the vehicle has a couple of relatively heavy options on top of the tow bar, such as larger wheels and an optional spare wheel, you will be over the GTW with no additional payload. A panoramic roof is especially heavy, as you are replacing relatively thin metal with thick glass and the supporting metallic structure. It is far from unusual for an optional panoramic roof to be 100-150kg by itself.

 

 

Whatever contortions you try to pull with the figures, the reality is that the 3330kg GTW means your vehicle isn't viable for holidaying with your caravan. The weighbridge figures suggest you may well be overweight with a 75kg driver, 90% fuel and a 1475kg caravan with your particular vehicle.

 

Someone - and it may be you - has assumed your vehicle can tow at almost its maximum towing weight with a usable payload, which clearly is not the case. Your main route to remedy, Pheasant, depends on what was disclosed to the supplying dealer at or before the point of sale. If you clearly disclosed that you were buying the vehicle to tow a caravan of close to 1500kg, you might have a strong claim against the dealer under the appropriate fitness for purpose legislation (section 4 of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 or the corresponding provision in the Consumer Rights Act 2015, depending on the date of purchase). Your contract is with the party who sold you the vehicle, and not with Citroen. There is a slim chance of bringing a claim in tort against Citroen, but if they have provided correct point of sale information that conforms with the relevant EU Regulations, it's somewhat difficult to see how you could claim against them based on negligence or product liability.

 

I've lost track of whether you bought the vehicle new or second-hand. If you bought it second-hand, your claim is potentially weaker than if you bought the vehicle new, because you could have checked the vehicle's weight plate prior to purchase, also you must accept the possibility of accident repairs or even dirt firmly adhered to the vehicle that increases its unladen mass above the MIRO.

 

 

Crucially, you have no defence against an overloading charge based on potentially misleading pre-purchase information - the driver is liable for overloading and cannot shift his or her liability to a third party (though a third party can be guilty of 'causing or permitting' that overloading). If you wish to continue using your 1475kg caravan, you really need to be making urgent plans to get a different tow vehicle.

 

If you believe you were misled about the towing capacity of your Citroen considering the negligible to non-existent payload at maximum towing capacity, I can only suggest you seek legal advice. Considering the potential magnitude of your losses, I would seriously consider consulting a solicitor rather than trying self-help or going via an organisation like Citizen's Advice.

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If Citroen are quoting MIRO, that figure excludes all factory fitted optional equipment including the approximate 25kg of tow bar and towing electrics.

I took a look at the type approval certificate of my Mercedes V Class, which has a post Regulation 2012/1230 type approval certificate that gives not only the MIRO at item 13, but also the actual mass of the vehicle at 13. 2. The difference is that MIRO excludes optional equipment, whilst actual mass includes it.

 

For reference, as the certificate for a Citroen may well be in French, item 16. 1 is GVW, item 16. 2 are the axle weights, item 16. 4 is GTW, item 18. 1 is tow limit for drawbar trailers, item 18. 3 is tow limit for centre axle trailers, item 18. 4 is tow limit for unbraked trailers and item 19 is noseweight limit.

 

There might be an entry in the notes section permitting an increase in GVW of up to 100kg when towing a trailer at up to 100km/h - in effect an allowance against GVW for some or all of the noseweight - though this only applies in countries whose national law recognises it and I'm not sure the UK does. For what it's worth, my Mercedes type approval certificate gives such as allowance (in German, "zu 16. 1:+100 bei Anh. betr.").

 

 

For my V Class, MIRO is 2170kg whilst actual mass is 2575kg, so the vehicle has 405kg of optional equipment for the purposes of type approval. GVW is 3100kg. This means the actual payload is 525kg plus a 75kg driver, not 930kg plus a 75kg driver as the MIRO would have you believe. Considering the V Class is an 8 seater, 525kg plus a 75kg driver is not an especially generous payload - in fact, it's the bare minimum for seven 75kg adults!

 

I haven't a clue how Mercedes come to 405kg of optional equipment. The optional equipment I specified over and above the standard UK specification is factory fitted towing equipment, electric front seats, DAB radio and the driving assistance package (upgrading the cruise control to adaptive cruise control, lane departure warning, blind spot warning and collision anticipation warning). That won't come to 405kg. However, the UK specification includes a lot of equipment that is not standard in Germany, and I suspect the MIRO is based on the German specification. If that is the case, a lot of heavy equipment that is standard in the UK is omitted from the MIRO, including a sliding rear door on both sides rather than just the nearside, both sliding doors being electrically powered, the tailgate being electrically powered, a second climate control system for the rear cabin, a larger alternator and a larger fuel tank.

 

 

My V Class is something of an extreme case - an already heavy vehicle with a lot of heavy equipment over and above the German specification. Though I doubt many vehicles have over 400kg of optional equipment, it is important to remember that, as UK specifications are typically much higher than European specifications, it will be common for many UK specification cars to have a significant mass of optional equipment. This means payload calculations based on MIRO will give a figure rather higher than the actual figure.

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I suspect that only in the case of the V5c quoting a Mass in running Order and the Maximum Permissible Towable Mass exceed the GTV you would have a case, I suspect Mass in running order could be missing, for some peculiar reason this figure need not be disclosed.

The main problem is that as you have found nothing is straight forward, if when you bought the car, did you state you were going to tow a caravan? did you order the tow bar from the selling dealer? if either was true, you may have a case, if the latter was the case, there could be an argument that the dealer as the expert should have warned you that there were limitations associated with towing up to the maximum tow load or mass.

Normally there is an asterisk in the brochure regarding the vehicles kerb weight, then an explanation somewhere in the brochure as to what the figure applies to, ( generally it means nothing, but often states base model) if you are really lucky it may state ex factory, or specify the EU directive, however unlikely as it reduces get out clauses.

The last resort is misleading advertising, it would appear that you could tow a caravan of 1500Kg and a normal person would assume that passengers would be a normal part of the description unless specifically excluded. That would be the Advertising Standards, may be worth a punt.

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This balancing payload against towload is very common in motorhomes were you have a maximum towing limit but is percentage of the GVW In brochures it is usually highlighted by a small astrix but unless you understand I doubt you would take notice .

 

 

Until the French manufacturers come in line and stop making it complicated people will continue to fall in the trap.

 

I wonder how much effect electric handbrakes have on a vehicles MTW ?

 

 

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave
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The car was bought,eighteen months old, from Citroen main dealer,it was explained that it was to tow 1475 kg. max weight caravan.

Not purchased at that point.

Dealer fitted approved witter towbar,at my request,

I am still a bit puzzled how the car can weight without passenger,cargo,spare wheel at 1790kgs.

Yet Citroen state it only weighs 1709kgs,add towbar 30kgs. Equal,1739kgs. there is not 50kgs of extras!

As transaction requests were verbal,I don't think I have any chance of a recourse from dealer or Citroen,but I think many car purchasers are being misled by this type of thing.

It isn't always possible to see car vin plate before purchase,especially when ordering a new car.

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Warning here on confusion on towing weights .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave
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The car was bought,eighteen months old, from Citroen main dealer,it was explained that it was to tow 1475 kg. max weight caravan.

Not purchased at that point.

Dealer fitted approved witter towbar,at my request,

 

This suggests that the dealer has breached the requirement that goods are reasonably fit for any purpose made known (expressly or impliedly) to the seller before purchase (section 10 Consumer Rights Act 2015 if you bought the vehicle on or after 1 October 2015, section 14(3) Sale of Goods Act 1979 if you bought it before that date). If you can prove that you more likely than not disclosed the requirement to tow a 1475kg caravan prior to purchase, you have the right to rescind the contract and hand back the car for a refund.

 

You say that the disclosure about towing was verbal, but your request for the dealer to fit a towbar impliedly discloses that you will use the vehicle to tow. If you requested twin electrics or 13 pin electrics with the power feeds connected, arguably that impliedly discloses that you intend to use the vehicle to tow a caravan. If you ordered or actually owned the caravan before you purchased the car, that suggests that you more likely than not disclosed that you wanted to tow the caravan in question. This is why I suggest you consult a solicitor urgently: you need someone experienced with the law to look over the facts of your case, consider what evidence is available to support your claim and advise you as to your options. The way a case is framed can be crucial to success. There are strict time limits for you to act and there is also the question of the appropriate charge for the use you have had from the car.

 

(If it's not obvious, I do have university qualifications in the law of England and Wales. However, I am not a member of one of the regulated legal professions and am not qualified to give individual legal advice. What I say is correct to the best of my ability, but I am not a legal practitioner and am not familiar with the precise facts of your case. Please get urgent legal advice).

 

 

I am still a bit puzzled how the car can weight without passenger,cargo,spare wheel at 1790kgs.

Yet Citroen state it only weighs 1709kgs,add towbar 30kgs. Equal,1739kgs. there is not 50kgs of extras!

As transaction requests were verbal,I don't think I have any chance of a recourse from dealer or Citroen,but I think many car purchasers are being misled by this type of thing.

It isn't always possible to see car vin plate before purchase,especially when ordering a new car.

 

It is in the manufacturer's interests to type approve each vehicle at the minimum possible mass, as that will improve the fuel economy and emissions figures. MIRO may well relate to a "poverty spec" vehicle not actually sold in the UK - as with my Mercedes, a lot of equipment that is standard in all UK vehicles might be optional equipment for type approval purposes and therefore not feature in MIRO.

 

If you have the type approval certificate (which may be with the vehicle handbook and other papers), what figure appears next to 13. 2? This is the actual mass of the vehicle ex-factory, including optional equipment. If you don't have the type approval certificate, Citroen must supply a duplicate on request, though are entitled to charge for providing it.

 

 

As I said above, please don't assume that your verbal disclosures about towing with the car defeat any legal claim you have. Find a solicitor who will give initial advice in a fixed-fee interview. It may turn out to be the best £50-100 you've ever spent. If you want some initial advice without spending anything, check to see if you have access to a legal helpline as part of an insurance policy, though these helplines may well only comment in general terms.

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I'd also have a test drive of the ETG gearbox.

 

They are just a robotised manual and are not in the same league as a good conventional auto or dual clutch auto.

 

They have been prone to actuator failure too.

 

Lee

Yeti 2.0TDi EU6 150 DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Fabia TSi DSG, Swift Challenger.

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This suggests that the dealer has breached the requirement that goods are reasonably fit for any purpose made known (expressly or impliedly) to the seller before purchase (section 10 Consumer Rights Act 2015 if you bought the vehicle on or after 1 October 2015, section 14(3) Sale of Goods Act 1979 if you bought it before that date). If you can prove that you more likely than not disclosed the requirement to tow a 1475kg caravan prior to purchase, you have the right to rescind the contract and hand back the car for a refund.

 

You say that the disclosure about towing was verbal, but your request for the dealer to fit a towbar impliedly discloses that you will use the vehicle to tow. If you requested twin electrics or 13 pin electrics with the power feeds connected, arguably that impliedly discloses that you intend to use the vehicle to tow a caravan. If you ordered or actually owned the caravan before you purchased the car, that suggests that you more likely than not disclosed that you wanted to tow the caravan in question. This is why I suggest you consult a solicitor urgently: you need someone experienced with the law to look over the facts of your case, consider what evidence is available to support your claim and advise you as to your options. The way a case is framed can be crucial to success. There are strict time limits for you to act and there is also the question of the appropriate charge for the use you have had from the car.

 

(If it's not obvious, I do have university qualifications in the law of England and Wales. However, I am not a member of one of the regulated legal professions and am not qualified to give individual legal advice. What I say is correct to the best of my ability, but I am not a legal practitioner and am not familiar with the precise facts of your case. Please get urgent legal

 

It is in the manufacturer's interests to type approve each vehicle at the minimum possible mass, as that will improve the fuel economy and emissions figures. MIRO may well relate to a "poverty spec" vehicle not actually sold in the UK - as with my Mercedes, a lot of equipment that is standard in all UK vehicles might be optional equipment for type approval purposes and therefore not feature in MIRO.

 

If you have the type approval certificate (which may be with the vehicle handbook and other papers), what figure appears next to 13. 2? This is the actual mass of the vehicle ex-factory, including optional equipment. If you don't have the type approval certificate, Citroen must supply a duplicate on request, though are entitled to charge for providing it.

 

 

As I said above, please don't assume that your verbal disclosures about towing with the car defeat any legal claim you have. Find a solicitor who will give initial advice in a fixed-fee interview. It may turn out to be the best £50-100 you've ever spent. If you want some initial advice without spending anything, check to see if you have access to a legal helpline as part of an insurance policy, though these helplines may well only comment in general terms.

This suggests that the dealer has breached the requirement that goods are reasonably fit for any purpose made known (expressly or impliedly) to the seller before purchase (section 10 Consumer Rights Act 2015 if you bought the vehicle on or after 1 October 2015, section 14(3) Sale of Goods Act 1979 if you bought it before that date). If you can prove that you more likely than not disclosed the requirement to tow a 1475kg caravan prior to purchase, you have the right to rescind the contract and hand back the car for a refund.

 

You say that the disclosure about towing was verbal, but your request for the dealer to fit a towbar impliedly discloses that you will use the vehicle to tow. If you requested twin electrics or 13 pin electrics with the power feeds connected, arguably that impliedly discloses that you intend to use the vehicle to tow a caravan. If you ordered or actually owned the caravan before you purchased the car, that suggests that you more likely than not disclosed that you wanted to tow the caravan in question. This is why I suggest you consult a solicitor urgently: you need someone experienced with the law to look over the facts of your case, consider what evidence is available to support your claim and advise you as to your options. The way a case is framed can be crucial to success. There are strict time limits for you to act and there is also the question of the appropriate charge for the use you have had from the car.

 

(If it's not obvious, I do have university qualifications in the law of England and Wales. However, I am not a member of one of the regulated legal professions and am not qualified to give individual legal advice. What I say is correct to the best of my ability, but I am not a legal practitioner and am not familiar with the precise facts of your case. Please get urgent legal advice).

 

 

 

It is in the manufacturer's interests to type approve each vehicle at the minimum possible mass, as that will improve the fuel economy and emissions figures. MIRO may well relate to a "poverty spec" vehicle not actually sold in the UK - as with my Mercedes, a lot of equipment that is standard in all UK vehicles might be optional equipment for type approval purposes and therefore not feature in MIRO.

 

If you have the type approval certificate (which may be with the vehicle handbook and other papers), what figure appears next to 13. 2? This is the actual mass of the vehicle ex-factory, including optional equipment. If you don't have the type approval certificate, Citroen must supply a duplicate on request, though are entitled to charge for providing it.

 

 

As I said above, please don't assume that your verbal disclosures about towing with the car defeat any legal claim you have. Find a solicitor who will give initial advice in a fixed-fee interview. It may turn out to be the best £50-100 you've ever spent. If you want some initial advice without spending anything, check to see if you have access to a legal helpline as part of an insurance policy, though these helplines may well only comment in general terms.

David W and others,thank you for your valued comments.

I do not intend going down a legal route, even Though I respect you feel I have a case.

The salesman,at point of sale referred to v5c. teck. permissable max towable mass of trailer o. 1 braked kgs. 1500.

I feel I have only three options,

Change caravan,

Change car,

Travel very,very,lightly and staying under or very close to mgtw,it is just possible.

I have to take the 45 kg item I referred to,it's my wife's very small mobility scooter.

Today I have removed just about everything possible from car and van,and by weighing everything and subtracting from weigh bridge figure I think we are legal,just!

We are off in the van tomorrow for two weeks,don't have time to pursue this any farther,and at my age don't want to.

Will decide which option to choose when I get back.

Thanks again for your comments,may be offline after tomorrow as I refuse to have any stress on holiday.

One last point,if I didn't look at CTalk,I would have been totally oblivious to all of this!

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The car was bought,eighteen months old, from Citroen main dealer,it was explained that it was to tow 1475 kg. max weight caravan.

Not purchased at that point.

Dealer fitted approved witter towbar,at my request,

I am still a bit puzzled how the car can weight without passenger,cargo,spare wheel at 1790kgs.

Yet Citroen state it only weighs 1709kgs,add towbar 30kgs. Equal,1739kgs. there is not 50kgs of extras!

As transaction requests were verbal,I don't think I have any chance of a recourse from dealer or Citroen,but I think many car purchasers are being misled by this type of thing.

It isn't always possible to see car vin plate before purchase,especially when ordering a new car.

 

 

The ds5 brochure gives the Gross train weight and the weights .

 

 

Dave

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The ds5 brochure gives the Gross train weight and the weights .

Dave

The car was eighteen months old when I bought it,no brochure was offered to me,I did do Google search on car, it had good ratings but massive depreciation figures,I even read reports from owners saying what a great tow car it was,can't remember where I saw it now. think it was owners forum or maybe it was CT.
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