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Am I Breaking The Law


dlea1230
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Hi

 

I took my driving test after 1997 and only have category B on my driving licence and want to know if I am breaking the law towing a Bailey ranger 510 with my car. Only reason I ask is that last week I was stopped and reported for driving in accordance with the driving licence however after getting home and doing some research I am sure the police are wrong .

 

My weights are has followed my tow car is a Mercedes c270 cdi diesel 2004 with a unladen weight of 1600kg and Gross weight of 2080kg also the gtw is 3580kg. The caravan is a Bailey ranger 510/4 2006 with a miro 1035kg and mam 1259kg

 

Can I tow on a cat b licence please help !!!!!

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What is the kerbweight of the car as declared in the handbook?

 

What is the max the car can tow? This is printed on the V5.

 

Your 2006 caravan should have a MTPLM weight figure on a plate near the door. What is it?

 

Oh and :welcome::welcome:

Graham

Unless otherwise stated all posts are my personal opinion 

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What is the kerbweight of the car as declared in the handbook?

 

What is the max the car can tow? This is printed on the V5.

 

Your 2006 caravan should have a MTPLM weight figure on a plate near the door. What is it?

 

Oh and :welcome::welcome:

 

My V5c does not show maximum braked towing limit !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where is it on yours ?

 

The only weight value is the item G Mass in Service and IT IS WRONG by a large margin - as was the one for my previous Volvo V70 D5 SE Geartronic and the three V70's before that.

 

Some of the 7 Volvo V70's that I have had have had absolutely nothing against the Mass in Service.

Life in general can be a journey of chance with some winners and sadly some losers. Your outfit can never be left to chance. A short-while carrying out essential checks can ensure a long-time of happy & safe caravanning for all concerned.
Ignorance can often be bliss but is certainly not an excuse and when continually disregarded they can be totally disastrous for oneself and the innocent parties.

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On a B licence you are limited to 3500kg sum of maximum plated weights.

 

The car maximum plated weight is gross vehicle weight, and is second largest number of the four on your weights plate.

For the caravan it is the MTPLM weight, again on a plate on your van.

 

You report your car is 2080 kg gross weight, and your van is 1259kg MTPLM.

The sum of these is 3339kg - which is within the limit and therefore legal.

 

You do need to take the numbers from the vehicle plates, and not from manuals, whatever.

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https://www. gov. uk/towing-with-car

Licences issued from 19 January 2013

 

From 19 January 2013, drivers passing a category B (car and small vehicle) test can tow:

  • small trailers weighing no more than 750kg
  • a trailer over 750kg as long as the combined weight of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg (3. 5 tonnes) Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)
If you want to tow a trailer weighing more than 750kg, when the combined weight of the towing vehicle and trailer is more than 3,500kg, you’ll have to pass a further test and get B+E entitlement on your licence.

You’ll then be able to tow trailers up to 3,500kg.

 

Licences held from 1 January 1997

 

If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can:

  • drive a vehicle up to 3,500kg MAM towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
  • tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg
For anything heavier you need to take a category B+E driving test.

 

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On a B licence you are limited to 3500kg sum of maximum plated weights.

 

The car maximum plated weight is gross vehicle weight, and is second largest number of the four on your weights plate.

For the caravan it is the MTPLM weight, again on a plate on your van.

 

You report your car is 2080 kg gross weight, and your van is 1259kg MTPLM.

The sum of these is 3339kg - which is within the limit and therefore legal.

 

You do need to take the numbers from the vehicle plates, and not from manuals, whatever.

 

Was going to say the same but not as well.

 

Kerbweight, mass in service, towing limit (and whether or not it's no the V5) aren't really relevant to your question

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Check your vin plate for maximum weights and this should give the gross weight (2nd largest is gross vehicle weight).

 

As said paperwork and handbooks can be wrong but the plates are the only legal weights.

 

 

 

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave
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If you're being reported for driving otherwise than in accordance with your licence, I'd suggest you get your car and van to a weigh bridge to get a categorical record of the weights. If nothing else, you could use the result as evidence to prove you are not.

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For licence purposes the actual weights do not matter, it's the sum of the PLATED weights that count. 2080kg seems a bit light. Is this the actual weight on the VIN plate?

Brian

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. ..

 

My weights are has followed my tow car is a Mercedes c270 cdi diesel 2004 with a unladen weight of 1600kg and Gross weight of 2080kg also the gtw is 3580kg. The caravan is a Bailey ranger 510/4 2006 with a miro 1035kg and mam 1259kg

 

. ..

Lots of people think you need a B+E to tow a caravan.

 

On the figures you give, I think you're fine. Do the figures come from the plates on the car and caravan (they need to)?

If you're being reported for driving otherwise than in accordance with your licence, I'd suggest you get your car and van to a weigh bridge to get a categorical record of the weights. If nothing else, you could use the result as evidence to prove you are not.

Being overweight is a different offence.

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As said, if your figures are correct then you are perfectly fine, in fact I do much the same, cars gross is 2120 and the van is 1287. .. So 3407kg.

 

What did they actually do when they stopped you?

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https://www. gov. uk/towing-with-car

Licences issued from 19 January 2013

 

From 19 January 2013, drivers passing a category B (car and small vehicle) test can tow:

  • small trailers weighing no more than 750kg
  • a trailer over 750kg as long as the combined weight of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg (3. 5 tonnes) Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)
If you want to tow a trailer weighing more than 750kg, when the combined weight of the towing vehicle and trailer is more than 3,500kg, you’ll have to pass a further test and get B+E entitlement on your licence.

You’ll then be able to tow trailers up to 3,500kg.

 

Licences held from 1 January 1997

 

If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can:

  • drive a vehicle up to 3,500kg MAM towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM
  • tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg
For anything heavier you need to take a category B+E driving test.

 

 

 

There's an error in that gov. uk information.

 

"Licences issued from 19 January 2013" should read "Changes applicable from 19 January 2013 to licences issued from 1 January 1997"

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Hi

 

I took my driving test after 1997 and only have category B on my driving licence and want to know if I am breaking the law towing a Bailey ranger 510 with my car. Only reason I ask is that last week I was stopped and reported for driving in accordance with the driving licence however after getting home and doing some research I am sure the police are wrong .

 

My weights are has followed my tow car is a Mercedes c270 cdi diesel 2004 with a unladen weight of 1600kg and Gross weight of 2080kg also the gtw is 3580kg. The caravan is a Bailey ranger 510/4 2006 with a miro 1035kg and mam 1259kg

 

Can I tow on a cat b licence please help !!!!!

480 kg payload for the car (2080-1600) seems a little low but not the lowest around - so assuming the 2080 kg is is correct then 2080 + 1259 = 3339 which is within the 3500 kg limit applied to B-only licence holders.

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Hi

I took my driving test after 1997 and only have category B on my driving licence and want to know if I am breaking the law towing a Bailey ranger 510 with my car. Only reason I ask is that last week I was stopped and reported for driving in accordance with the driving licence however after getting home and doing some research I am sure the police are wrong .

My weights are has followed my tow car is a Mercedes c270 cdi diesel 2004 with a unladen weight of 1600kg and Gross weight of 2080kg also the gtw is 3580kg. The caravan is a Bailey ranger 510/4 2006 with a miro 1035kg and mam 1259kg

Can I tow on a cat b licence please help !!!!!

Was it reference the towing or another reason. Just checking.

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As others have said, you appear to be legal. A couple of questions though.

What were the circumstances of the police checking your licence? It's never happened to me, even when stopped in a routine caravan check operation.

Did the police check the plates on both car and caravan and record them? Were you present at the time?

 

I find it hard to believe they would report you for a small "overload". Much more likely to offer "words of advice"

 

One for the forum's legal eagles:

 

I was under the impression that on a 2006 'van the vin/weight plate was not mandatory and had no legal standing. Would the authorities be allowed to use these weights in court or would they need to crawl under the caravan to check the axle weight?

I ask this as due to errors by the manufacturer when I uprated my caravan I have 3 plates with different weights for the same chassis number, which I can change at will.

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Hi

 

I took my driving test after 1997 and only have category B on my driving licence and want to know if I am breaking the law towing a Bailey ranger 510 with my car. Only reason I ask is that last week I was stopped and reported for driving in accordance with the driving licence however after getting home and doing some research I am sure the police are wrong .

 

My weights are has followed my tow car is a Mercedes c270 cdi diesel 2004 with a unladen weight of 1600kg and Gross weight of 2080kg also the gtw is 3580kg. The caravan is a Bailey ranger 510/4 2006 with a miro 1035kg and mam 1259kg

 

Can I tow on a cat b licence please help !!!!!

 

I am a bit confused as you state you were driving in accordance with your driving licence while towing so there should be no issue. The combination falls well within the capability of the category B driving licence. Were you issued with a FPN or just given a verbal warning. Was the caravan weighed by the police while attached to the towing vehicle?

 

One for the forum's legal eagles:

 

I was under the impression that on a 2006 'van the vin/weight plate was not mandatory and had no legal standing. Would the authorities be allowed to use these weights in court or would they need to crawl under the caravan to check the axle weight?

I ask this as due to errors by the manufacturer when I uprated my caravan I have 3 plates with different weights for the same chassis number, which I can change at will.

I think you are correct as the MTPLM plate on a 2006 caravan is not a legal requirement. Checking the axle weights is meaningless unless the car and caravan were weighed while the caravan was attached to the towing vehicle. Only at that point could the police decide whether to prosecute if the combination exceeds the gross train weight of the towing vehicle as stated on the VIN plate.

Hopefully the OP was not the Merc towing a caravan at 70mph in a clip on a another thread when the maximum speed on a motorway is 60mph when towing? :D

Edited by DeltaTIowner
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Hi

 

Thank you all for your advice, I was stopped by Essex Police for not have any tow mirror fitted (luckily i had some in my boot) and then once they done there check they started going on about my licence. I have been emailing essex police regarding the issue and i shall try to upload there email. They are basicly saying that because my vehicles max gross train weight could be 3580kg i am over 3500kg even though the combines MAM of the car and caravan is below 3500kg but on all the websites it mentiones nothing regarding Max Gross Train Weight. I have uploaded some photos of my vehicles weights.

 

Hi

 

Sorry was reported for driveing other than in accordance with your licence and yes i was issued with FPN but not taken to a weight bridge has the police officer said there is no need has we use the plated weights.

 

Good afternoon David

I have to say that your question has really led to some interesting discussion and a variety of opinions some in favour and some against. I have this morning discussed the circumstances with the officer and his rationale behind his decision that you have driven other than in accordance with your licence. I am afraid that I cannot give you a 100% definitive answer or point you to any website that will give you the definitive but I think I have to agree with the officers interpretation and I will attempt to explain why below.

Looking at the Motor vehicle driving regs 1999 Schedule 2 Part 1 that you mentioned on the phone.

Cat B Licence

Motor vehicles, other than vehicles included in category A, F, K or P, having a maximum authorised mass not exceeding 3. 5 tonnes and not more than eight seats in addition to the drivers seat, including:

35](i) a combination of any such vehicle and a trailer where the trailer has a maximum authorised mass not exceeding 750 kilogrammes, and

35]

35](ii) a combination of any such vehicle and a trailer where the maximum authorised mass of the combination does not exceed 3. 5 tonnes and the maximum authorised mass of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the tractor vehicle.

 

My understanding is the term Maximum Authorised Mass has effectively replaced previous terms such has GVW (Gross vehicle weight) GTW (Gross Train weight) etc.

So for example I can drive a vehicle with a plated MAM of 3500kgs or below on a Cat B licence. With only me in it and half a tank of fuel and no suitcases its actual on the road weight is probably only 2500KGs or less.

I get in a similar vehicle with a plated MAM of say 3600kgs again with no suitcases half a tank of fuel and only me in it its actual on the road weight is less than 3500kgs. I still would need a Cat C licence to drive it as the Plate says its MAM is over 3500kgs even though its actual weight on the road is less.

The plate on your vehicle says that its MAM (GTW) for a combination of vehicle and trailer is 3580KGs so the minute you put a trailer on in excess of 750kgs allowed under (i) the MAM for a combination exceeds 3500 and so you need the + E on your licence even though the actual on the road weight is less.

So effectively the actual on the road weight is of no consequence which makes sense really as otherwise we would have to weigh every vehicle we stopped to see if the driver was complying with their licence unless of course we are investigating an overweight offence then we would need to weigh the vehicle or combination. What I have also found out while researching your question is that because your vehicles GTW is over 3500kgs and you are using it for business you may also need a Tachograph.

http://www. fleetnews. co. uk/fleet-management/fleet-legislation-do-you-need-a-tachograph-if-you-tow-for-your-business-you-do/37588/

You obviously have some choices.

1) Seek legal advice regarding challenging the ticket as it is all about interpretation and a solicitor and a court may see it differently to us.

2) Take the B+E test then you know you are legal and then check whether you may need a Tachograph. (Please dont ask me as not my area of expertise!)

3) Have your vehicles GTW down plated to below 3500KGs

4) Get a different vehicle with a GTW 3500KGs or below but make sure that you dont fall foul of the trailers MAM exceeding the tractor vehicles unladen weight.

I hope that the examples given help to explain the thinking behind the decision. If you wish to discuss then please feel free to give me a call.

Regards

*******

Police Sergeant ****

Chelmsford RPU

Ext 420081

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No plate fitted then the police use the tyre load weight as a declaration which is usually higher than the Mtplm for the caravan which would make it higher.

 

Is the vehicle a estate or saloon as this will make a difference to figures as estate usually have higher GVW.

 

Something does not sound right by the figures you quote.

 

 

Police are talking rubbish the b licence requires the trailers MAM and the vehicles MAM to be under 3500kg exceeding a mtw is a different offence not a licence offence . You are completely legal on the weights quoted.

 

Do you belong to the CC if so contact their legal department . If it was me I would be after the officers badge giving false information.

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave
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What figure is next to F 1 on your log sheet. Add this to your caravan maximum permissible load.

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Let me get this right . ..........

 

The cops are saying that because you only have a B licence and the plated GTW on the vehicle is over 3500 then you are illegal !!

 

WHAT PLONKERS

 

I am really looking forward to seeing the email they sent you

Edited by R0G
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I can see the officer's reasoning.

 

If the matter is based on plated weights then as soon as a trailer is attached the GTW is involved and as it's over 3500kg an offence is committed.

 

In a way it makes as much sense as our usual understanding that it's the plated gross weights added together that apply i. e. neither view taked into account actual weights that may be well below 3500kg.

 

What concerns me is that the officer's understanding may just be his own interpretation or is it what he and possibly other officers have been trained to?,

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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I have just read the email

 

Please can you give me the email address for that officer ?

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