reluctant Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) Type approval is the key here. The plate that displays the type approval number is the one that carries the legally enforceable weight, that is what the type approval covers. The MPTLM is a manufacturer reccomendatio. This is why manufacturers are able to uprate as they are not changing the weight that the trailer is legally allowed to carry. What they are doing is charging you up to £100 for a sticker that really is not worth the sticker it is printed on. Are you honestly suggesting that the manufacturers would charge for a sticker that had no legal validity? I would humbly suggest that this would be frowned upon by their own legal council. Should the proverbial ever hit the rotary air moving device, they would be left without a leg upon which to stand! Any weight plate issued by the manufacturer will undoubtably stand up to legal scrutiny!! Edited August 2, 2015 by reluctant Quote Trevor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david 1220 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 we do --- have Riech caravan checker in the car . Have offered the use of it to other ( well loaded ) caravaners and have always had the offer declined--- one said "i would rather not know" . The O/p 's roof box - if he puts all the stuff up there as he says i wonder if he is aware of the makers max load on the roof for his car ? 1 Quote Skoda Scout 4x4 pulling a coachman Amara 520/4 at 93%---- when full! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj202b Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Are you honestly suggesting that the manufacturers would charge for a sticker that had no legal validity? I would humbly suggest that this would be frowned upon by their own legal council. Should the proverbial ever hit the rotary air moving device, they would be left without a leg upon which to stand! Any weight plate issued by the manufacturer will undoubtably stand up to legal scrutiny!! But you said the sticker displayed the maximum safe weight, if this is so how can a new heavier weight sticker be issued without any changes to the van? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grev Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Are you honestly suggesting that the manufacturers would charge for a sticker that had no legal validity? I would humbly suggest that this would be frowned upon by their own legal council. Should the proverbial ever hit the rotary air moving device, they would be left without a leg upon which to stand! Any weight plate issued by the manufacturer will undoubtably stand up to legal scrutiny!! The legally required information is i believe: Manufacturers name Type approval number Serial number/chassis number Number of axles Maximum weight Maximum axle weight Maximum hitch weight. As you can see from the attached photos only one of these plates carries all of these. The manufactures are only giving you a change of plate, they send it in the post to you, they make no changes to the vehicle. So the vehicle is ready to take the additional weight without modification or upgrade of any structural component because it is made to do so and legally plated to confirm this. . Quote We only went in to have a look!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reluctant Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 It is a simple matter of the manufacturers wanting to please everyone. They make a caravan and decide upon a target consumer group. Give it a plated weight (less than the axle weight) and submit it for type approval. Henceforth can sell the van to said target consumer group. .. Take the plate off and put a slightly higher plate on which would appeal to a smaller (but nonetheless equally ready to part with their hard earned cash) consumer group, and again submit for type approval. They can then upgrade to the higher weight (for a financial consideration) In law each is the highest weight the van can be safely used on the road. ..crazy perhaps but the lawmakers thought it a good idea. Woe betide the member of the first consumer group who thinks he can just run at the higher weight and gets checked!! Argueing that the van was perfectly safe if the only change was to the weight plate is not a legal defence! Quote Trevor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWanderingLancastrian Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I'm MRO of 1660kg with MTPLM of 2200kg so with 540kg to play with I think (I hope) i'm ok but I suspect this is widely and often inadvertently flouted, primarily due to manufacturers who squeeze the MTPLM to hit an ever-lightening towcar market and push the problem downhill to us end-users. Let's be straight about this, it's not a chassis issue or a safety issue, this is a declaration issue since most caravans can be replated to be considerably higher for a modest fee, without modification. Personally I think manufacturers should be forced to allow a statutory (honest and reasonable) weight for payload, which I think should be about 300kg, anything less is effectively forcing users to be illegal. often unwittingly so. Bailey MTPLM minus MRO is about 160kg (just over 25 st), that's not a lot of payload when you add it all up really honestly. Hi PNW. Have I misunderstood your post ? More to the point are you suggeting that the MiRO of your Vanmaster Occasion 640 TBEW is only 1660kgs !!!!!!! ???? I think not. My guess is that it is closer to 1950 or 2000kgs. My old 2001 Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco was originally sold as MiRO 1426kgs and MTPLM 1750kgs albeit the MiRO was actually 1426kgs on a VOSA Dynamic Axle Weighbridge/Beam. Quote Life in general can be a journey of chance with some winners and sadly some losers. Your outfit can never be left to chance. A short-while carrying out essential checks can ensure a long-time of happy & safe caravanning for all concerned. Ignorance can often be bliss but is certainly not an excuse and when continually disregarded they can be totally disastrous for oneself and the innocent parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reluctant Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 The legally required information is i believe: Manufacturers name Type approval number Serial number/chassis number Number of axles Maximum weight Maximum axle weight Maximum hitch weight. As you can see from the attached photos only one of these plates carries all of these. The manufactures are only giving you a change of plate, they send it in the post to you, they make no changes to the vehicle. So the vehicle is ready to take the additional weight without modification or upgrade of any structural component because it is made to do so and legally plated to confirm this. image. jpg. image. jpg The plate in the wheel arch is what would normally be refered to as the manufacturers plate which would be used for enforcement purposes. I have to admit I have never come across a caravan with two plates fitted before. My own, when up-plated came with plates similar to the manufacturers plate showing the new raised maximum weights fitted near the door and in the gas locker, both identical. Quote Trevor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grev Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) The pics are from my 'van the plate by the door and the other in the front locker. I've also checked all my paperwork documentation and it supports the higher weight. I would be willing to argue this is the correct weight if stopped Graeme Edited August 2, 2015 by Grev Quote We only went in to have a look!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWanderingLancastrian Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 The plate in the wheel arch is what would normally be refered to as the manufacturers plate which would be used for enforcement purposes. I have to admit I have never come across a caravan with two plates fitted before. My own, when up-plated came with plates similar to the manufacturers plate showing the new raised maximum weights fitted near the door and in the gas locker, both identical. Hi reluctant. When a caravan is uprated after initial purchase or immediately prior to taking delivery does the manufacture in conjuction with supplying a newweight plate then inform CRiS and a new document is then issued showing this change ? The original CRiS document for my previous caravan showed absolutely nothing as to the MiRO or the MTPLM so how would a legitimate change of spec be recorded and therefore be able to be offered in the case of aroadside check ? Quote Life in general can be a journey of chance with some winners and sadly some losers. Your outfit can never be left to chance. A short-while carrying out essential checks can ensure a long-time of happy & safe caravanning for all concerned. Ignorance can often be bliss but is certainly not an excuse and when continually disregarded they can be totally disastrous for oneself and the innocent parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reluctant Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Mine was up-plated prior to me taking delivery new. I have only ever seen the plates which are currently fitted and only had one CRiS document. I assume the dealer dealt with any paperwork involved. A roadside check would only examine the fitted plates and deal with any offences in relation to those. There would never be a need to show it had been up-plated Quote Trevor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Grouse Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 The pics are from my 'van the plate by the door and the other in the front locker. I've also checked all my paperwork documentation and it supports the higher weight. I would be willing to argue this is the correct weight if stopped Graeme Good luck - plated weight is the legal arbiter, not some other weight. 1 Quote 2015 VW Touareg 3. 0 V6 TDI + 2013 Lunar Clubman ES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grev Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Good luck - plated weight is the legal arbiter, not some other weight. So you would agree that the plate that carries ALL the legally required information is the correct one to use? Quote We only went in to have a look!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damoleeds Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Just had mine replated from 1430kg to 1495kg. £50 from Lunar. I don't know why (well I do) manufacturers make vans with such a small payload. A dealer explained to me that despite making allowances in the MIRO for "essential habitation equipment" like batteries and gas, there's no set figure for either and varies from one manufacturer to another. However, you can dress it up how you want. The van weighs X from the workshop, and can take a maximum of whatever axle it's built on. If the industry knows overloading is commonplace, then it's time to either give people a realistic payload by increasing the MTPLM (and uprating the axle) or making fitted equipment lighter to reduce the MIRO on that axle. If a consumer wants a van and be able to put their iridium inside, then it's time to buy a bigger car, and tow a caravan that has the payload. But having said that, even the big TAs seem to have a relatively low payload, despite being designed for 6 occupants, so 50% more clothing and 50% more food than a 4 berth as well as more bracketry for bunks etc. I've got lucky in having a "decent" payload, and had 70kg to spare, but I was only away for two nights without the sprout, and didn't take much food as we were eating with family, so that 70kg will soon be lost. I could get 29kg back by taking off the mover (another thing manufacturers need to allow for these days), but it's not that much spare if I ended up shoving the awning in the van or if I took bikes with me. If it's a wide problem it needs addressing by the industry before legislators get involved. If it is a wide problem like the industry says, why aren't the Police more active in bagging caravans? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grev Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 We have 6 children, 4 still at home, so we have a people carrier, seven seats in a car = no boot so we have a huge roof box. We have a 6 berth caravan as this is appropriate accomodation for a large family yet only a payload of 173kg add in bedding, awning which I cant fit in the car due to children, plates cutlery towels etc and i have something like 8kg spare not much margin for error. Realistically i could do with another 100kg to be on the safe side! Also i dont have a mover. The industry does need to make changes to make it possible for people to be able to use their caravans for proper family holidays. My only other option is to buy a van with seats so that I have the space and payload to do everything i would need but then i would have to drive a van everywhere. Annoying when I have a perfectly capable car that with the right weight allowance in the 'van would be the ideal outfit. Quote We only went in to have a look!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebble Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 In fairness to Lunar, their MTPLM's have come down over the past couple of years. Yes, they're putting more gadgets and gizmos in but if you can get the MTPLM uprated, this gives you more payload. Quite a bit extra payload on t/a 'vans but not so much on s/a ones. IIRC, we got another 90kg by uprating to 1800kg. Quote 2019 Adria Adora Thames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 We have 6 children, 4 still at home, so we have a people carrier. ... Also i dont have a mover. No need for a mover with all those kids to help push. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grev Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 No need for a mover with all those kids to help push. If I can get them off their phones!! Quote We only went in to have a look!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damoleeds Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Lock the phones in the van and unlock it when sited Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagan8c Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 In fairness to Lunar, their MTPLM's have come down over the past couple of years. Yes, they're putting more gadgets and gizmos in but if you can get the MTPLM uprated, this gives you more payload. Quite a bit extra payload on t/a 'vans but not so much on s/a ones. IIRC, we got another 90kg by uprating to 1800kg. Same for me on my 640 and as it was before delivery there was no charge to me either. The new plate was given to me to stick on myself as in fact it is only a self adhesive metalised type sticker. I did this to allow for the extra weight of the movers which still allowed me a bit more for what I needed to take in the van. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtrailman Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 An alternative view could be that those people who are taking bikes, chairs etc. out of vans got there in one piece, so maybe the world will not end. .. I try not to overload the caravan, but I'm not going to go to the extent of weighing stuff and certainly not keep spreadsheets. .. We have a large car, but with kids, dogs etc. there is only so much space available. I take bikes and chairs out of my caravan. Everything is weighed and recorded on excel, so I'm confident that my loading is with in my allowance. I admit that I have never weighed the caravan empty so my MTPLM my be higher or lower than I assume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtrailman Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 The plated weight is the axle plated weight and the upper limit as described in the Swift technical handbook, I have no idea about other manufacturers, it should also be on the chassis. The MTPLM sticker/plate/notification is attached to the body and generally glued on or pop riveted and has dubious legality. A modern Bailey has a plate on the axle, and a plate on the side of the caravan. My axle is plated at 1600kg, my MTPLM is 1565kg, and upgrade is possible to 1600kg with an increase in tyre pressure from 62psi to 65psi. As Swift caravans also have varying MTPLM and use an ALKO chassis, I personally can't see how your statement is correct, or I miss understood what you have written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtrailman Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Good luck - plated weight is the legal arbiter, not some other weight. With my last caravan a 2004 Senator, the plate had faded and couldn't be read. The new one (2011) is the same sort of sticker, so I'm confident that will also fad in time. So what will the police do in those circumstances to prosecute? I suppose I should be asking Reluctant this? Bailey did send me another sticker FOC, but I never bothered to fit it, just left it inside the caravan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Grouse Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 A modern Bailey has a plate on the axle, and a plate on the side of the caravan. My axle is plated at 1600kg, my MTPLM is 1565kg, and upgrade is possible to 1600kg with an increase in tyre pressure from 62psi to 65psi. As Swift caravans also have varying MTPLM and use an ALKO chassis, I personally can't see how your statement is correct, or I miss understood what you have written. The plate on the axle itself is irrelevant in this context, as are weights in handbooks or Type-Approval certificates - the plate/sticker on the side of the caravan would be used in court where necessary. How Bailey owners would fare when the plated faded I've no idea! Quote 2015 VW Touareg 3. 0 V6 TDI + 2013 Lunar Clubman ES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I suspect there is a considerable plated information under the A frame cover as on most continental vans, we cover them up, the continentals don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david 1220 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 No need for a mover with all those kids to help push. Ever tried to get kids to do the same thing at the same time ? Quote Skoda Scout 4x4 pulling a coachman Amara 520/4 at 93%---- when full! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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