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Well it's a good job the EU testing method works for petrol and diesel so buyers can make an informed choice then - oh wait a minute. . . .. . .. .

I can't defend that.

 

Many Euro 6 diesels have better EU figures than their otherwise identical Euro 5 predecessors and yet produce worse real world figures.

 

Whilst the upcoming WLTP-RDE will be better than the almost obsolete EU-NEDC test, I'm not convinced it'll gives buyers good information.

2015 VW Touareg 3. 0 V6 TDI + 2013 Lunar Clubman ES

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I no longer tow the caravan and do 10-20 miles per day which is within electric range   I have my own company so bought this as a company car due to 100% capital allowance first year and BIK of £54

We have used our 2016 Outlader PHEV to tow our 2014 Sterling Eccles 554 over a thousand miles during the summer with no issues or concerns.   When solo running on the petrol engine alone it returns

The Outlander PHEV has a pretty rubbish reputation as a towcar.   Performed poorly in the Towcar of the Year tests, and on their 55 mile test result (starting with fully charged batteries) it manag

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I was able to achieve quoted combined figures on my diesel vehicles occasionally until 2015 when I bought the Lr disco sport

 

I even beat the combined figure of 33 on the last range rover sport a few times with 35 and 36 on good runs according to the computer at least

 

No matter what I did I never managed stated 53 on the disco sport diesel

 

So I accept the figures quoted in brochures now are fiction and relied instead on figures from existing owners and achieved during test drive before buying

 

I have posted my figures fill to fill in case anyone is interested in facts - I don't bother posting individual trips as they are inaccurate

 

I see little point in posting actual experience then having to defend it because it doesn't fit someone else's opinion or what they heard elsewhere

A Vanner without a van due to the demands of DIY and SWMBO - 40 years was a good run though :unsure:

 

Now a Motorhome Learner with a Fiat Toad :o

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Well it's a good job the EU testing method works for petrol and diesel so buyers can make an informed choice then - oh wait a minute. . . .. . .. .

At least the figures are somewhere near the right county, the figures for the PHRV are not even on the planet.

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Issue here is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole!

We all need to accept that vehicles in the future will be a hybrid/full electric or something else. The 170mpg is fine if you take it as a whole journey and that then makes complete sense (actually I'm quite jealous as it makes for cheap motoring). The issue lies when you try to equate to the traditional mpg, that everyone traditionally works things out to. Looking at it pragmatically, the car uses say 1/3rd of a gallon over the journey, therefore 170mpg, but the real equivalent mpg should be £2 for the fuel (say £6 per gallon), plus 44p for electric charge (ignoring the 'free' charge at work - this equates to £2. 44 and thus a reduced 'mpg' of circa 146mpg (if not free at work then the 'mpg' reduces to 125).

Whatever the debate, these vehicles will be our future, like it or not 🤓

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Issue here is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole!

We all need to accept that vehicles in the future will be a hybrid/full electric or something else. The 170mpg is fine if you take it as a whole journey and that then makes complete sense (actually I'm quite jealous as it makes for cheap motoring). The issue lies when you try to equate to the traditional mpg, that everyone traditionally works things out to. Looking at it pragmatically, the car uses say 1/3rd of a gallon over the journey, therefore 170mpg, but the real equivalent mpg should be £2 for the fuel (say £6 per gallon), plus 44p for electric charge (ignoring the 'free' charge at work - this equates to £2. 44 and thus a reduced 'mpg' of circa 146mpg (if not free at work then the 'mpg' reduces to 125).

Whatever the debate, these vehicles will be our future, like it or not 🤓

The problem is you simply cannot use mpg to cover electric traction, the units don't equate.

 

If you're going to talk mpg it simply must be flat batteries and all motive power provided by the engine. Specify electric range and units to charge on top of that and we're getting somewhere realistic.

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I agree mpg doesn't work to compare ICE with PHEV and the figures quoted by manufacturers are false - amazing how supermarkets can't get away with it but they can :unsure:

 

Neither does comparing with flat batteries - why would you run a PHEV and not charge the batteries? I can get up to 30 miles on electric for £1 - it's a no brainer!

 

At the end of the day what matters is cost per mile - Outlander has cost me 6p/mile for petrol and 3p/mile for electric - my last LR Disco Sport cost me 13. 6p/mile

 

I'm saving money and no longer shooting clouds of black soot out the back for people following to inhale - so with a looming pure ICE ban and falling used prices as people look for alternatives I'm happy with my choice

A Vanner without a van due to the demands of DIY and SWMBO - 40 years was a good run though :unsure:

 

Now a Motorhome Learner with a Fiat Toad :o

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I agree mpg doesn't work to compare ICE with PHEV and the figures quoted by manufacturers are false - amazing how supermarkets can't get away with it but they can :unsure:

 

Neither does comparing with flat batteries - why would you run a PHEV and not charge the batteries? I can get up to 30 miles on electric for £1 - it's a no brainer!

 

At the end of the day what matters is cost per mile - Outlander has cost me 6p/mile for petrol and 3p/mile for electric - my last LR Disco Sport cost me 13. 6p/mile

 

I'm saving money and no longer shooting clouds of black soot out the back for people following to inhale - so with a looming pure ICE ban and falling used prices as people look for alternatives I'm happy with my choice

Well you don't really know what pollution your electricity is causing for sure do you?

 

The point about flat batteries is that the PHEV should show better mpg than with fully charged ones because the regenerative braking has somewhere to store the energy, if the batteries were full it would just have to be wasted. I was just suggesting it would give a realistic fuel consumption by starting with them flat. In real use of course you would plug in and charge.

The range on electric only is also very significant with winter and summer figures too.

Your running costs are for sure very good, I wonder how long it will be before the government step in to recoup their lost revenues from oil?

I thought the ban in 2040 was for Petrol and Diesel powered cars rather than ICE?

 

AJ

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Domestic electricity presently gets the low VAT rate of 5% with zero duty - realistically that's not going to continue indefinitely for home charging - who knows, government doesn't know what it's doing today, let alone 20+ years time.

 

The revenue presently raised by fuel duty and 20% VAT on diesel/petrol will have to be raised somewhere - inevitably hitting everyone - not just to keep the NHS, schools, etc running but also to replay the debt incurred in the necessary infrastructure investment. Glad I don't have to pay Income Tax !

2015 VW Touareg 3. 0 V6 TDI + 2013 Lunar Clubman ES

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  • 1 year later...

The new Outlander has been updated with a new fuel efficient and torquer 2. 4 engine upgrade on the electric motor and battery capacity, I wonder how this will compare with the outgoing model ?

 

Normally I tend to do short journeys, have my own drive (so capable of installing a charging system), my caravan is light enough.

We tow the caravan to the New Forest approximately 180miles  each way, occasionally to Cornwall 250 each way plus 3 to 4 more local sites within 100 mile radius, that works out about 2000 miles a year towing (all CMC site so possibly free electric until they wake up and catch on). I wonder how this stacks up against my Ford Kuga's 28 mpg towing 

Edited by Oscarmax

2020 Mitsubishi Outlander 2.4  PHEV and 2016 Swift Conqueror 480 HT

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A friend is waiting for delivery of his MY19 - he  noticed  increase in battery range on demonstrator - I get approx 25 miles on battery with MY16 he drove 28 miles last week on battery and still had 7 miles left - unfortunately SWMBO hates the new black roof lining and losing sunroof in lieu of heated windscreen:(

 

I'm not towing now but have averaged 80 mpg over 2 years in my PHEV

Edited by Muddywheels

A Vanner without a van due to the demands of DIY and SWMBO - 40 years was a good run though :unsure:

 

Now a Motorhome Learner with a Fiat Toad :o

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That is excellent, my Ford Kuga and my old Honda CRV 2. 2 approximately 45 solo and 28 mpg towing, but in the winter they would drop to around 38 mpg.

 

I have been studying the new Toyota Rav4 hybrid, I realise the outgoing model was not a particularly towcar?

 

I have got a new grandson, so my outlook is on his health, not my fuel consumption and caravan towing abilities.

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2020 Mitsubishi Outlander 2.4  PHEV and 2016 Swift Conqueror 480 HT

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1 hour ago, Oscarmax said:

 

I have got a new grandson, so my outlook is on his health, not my fuel consumption and caravan towing abilities.

 

Don't be sucked into it, they are not eco friendly at all. I dont believe for a second my PHEV is better for the environment than a well sorted efficient diesel. Even if you forget the 30 mpg solo when battery runs out the cost to the environment of producing and eventually disposing of the batteries and electric motors will take years to pay back. ..plus of course most of our electric we put into them is still made by burning fossil fuels.

 

I only have mine for the cheap company car tax.  

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I ponder on what the environmental costs are in installing the infrastructure necessary for electric vehicles and the equipment to produce so called non-fossil fuel electricity. 

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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Just listened to a Radio 4 programme on living with EVs.

 

It raised some interesting, if not new points.

 

-range is still an issue, but we are getting close to realistic ranges (300 miles) being normal

- charging times are dropping

-charging can be accommodated by our infrastructure

-yes, the electricity comes in part from fossil fuels but power stations are much more efficient than the ICR

-the latest diesels can effectively counter local pollution issues

-range extender hybrids make a lot of sense, at least prior to an improved charging network

-the time will come when an EV is the cheaper purchase and commitments by governments to have a cut off date for ICR will help drive this.

 

Personally, I'd be well up for an EV as our second car. It needs a range of about 200 miles to make it worth considering.  

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Was going to get a Zoe for Mrs SDA about two years ago but the canvas dog crate wouldn't fit in the boot. It would fit easily in the boot of the, smaller overall, Twingo though. Mind, the cheapest dealer was in Tunbridge Wells and that would've taken three recharges to get home.

 

Nobody ever answers the question about how long it takes to overcome the environmental cost of, say, making and installing and commissioning a wind turbine. The view seems to be that it produces free electricity, but how much is embedded in getting it up and running and when is that recovered. Of course if the government is paying silly money for the electricity that recovery period can be reduced, but proper unsubsidised prices are what it should be compared against. 

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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31 minutes ago, svimes said:

Just listened to a Radio 4 programme on living with EVs.

 

It raised some interesting, if not new points.

 

-range is still an issue, but we are getting close to realistic ranges (300 miles) being normal

- charging times are dropping

-charging can be accommodated by our infrastructure

-yes, the electricity comes in part from fossil fuels but power stations are much more efficient than the ICR

-the latest diesels can effectively counter local pollution issues

-range extender hybrids make a lot of sense, at least prior to an improved charging network

-the time will come when an EV is the cheaper purchase and commitments by governments to have a cut off date for ICR will help drive this.

 

Personally, I'd be well up for an EV as our second car. It needs a range of about 200 miles to make it worth considering.  

 

Electrified cars are certainly heading in the right direction to counter the contra-arguments - owners' driving patterns will determine whether, and which, an EV, PHEV or hybrid is practical for them.

 

Personally, I expect to be one of the last - only one car in the household so has to do all functions, some longer journeys to nature reserves with no mains electrics, some long towing trips and no intention to downsize! In practice, I'll probably need an electric hearse before I need an EV.

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2015 VW Touareg 3. 0 V6 TDI + 2013 Lunar Clubman ES

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Reading some of the comments above I now remember why I rarely post here anymore :rolleyes:

 

For anyone interested in Facts not Opinions/Rumours I have achieved genuine 80 mpg petrol consumption over last 2 years/21400 miles tracked by Fuelly not estimates (I have tried to post link before but it was deleted) - worst 3 tanks were 34. 7, 40. 2 and 33. 4 mpg on touring holidays with no access to charging facilities - obviously when charging it is much better overall as shown by my 2 year average

 

My last diesel claimed 53 mpg but achieved 35 mpg over 9 months and used twice as much Adblue as advertised so I gave up and stopped listening to the claims - the depreciation was the last straw!

 

Charging flat battery at home costs me £1 for 25 miles range, saved my company £1000s in Corporation Tax, saves me loads in Personal Tax being a company car, Saves me £2. 20 per hour parking in York which I visit regularly, costs me Nil in VED, only visited dealer twice since purchase (1st and 2nd Service), I can burn petrol on the open road and save the battery for city driving and queuing, many places I can charge Free. ......

 

I could go on but to be honest I should probably leave the naysayers to it then I will not have to drive around searching for an empty chargepoint;)

A Vanner without a van due to the demands of DIY and SWMBO - 40 years was a good run though :unsure:

 

Now a Motorhome Learner with a Fiat Toad :o

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5 minutes ago, Muddywheels said:

Reading some of the comments above I now remember why I rarely post here anymore :rolleyes:

 

For anyone interested in Facts not Opinions/Rumours I have achieved genuine 80 mpg petrol consumption over last 2 years/21400 miles tracked by Fuelly not estimates (I have tried to post link before but it was deleted) - worst 3 tanks were 34. 7, 40. 2 and 33. 4 mpg on touring holidays with no access to charging facilities - obviously when charging it is much better overall as shown by my 2 year average

 

My last diesel claimed 53 mpg but achieved 35 mpg over 9 months and used twice as much Adblue as advertised so I gave up and stopped listening to the claims - the depreciation was the last straw!

 

Charging flat battery at home costs me £1 for 25 miles range, saved my company £1000s in Corporation Tax, saves me loads in Personal Tax being a company car, Saves me £2. 20 per hour parking in York which I visit regularly, costs me Nil in VED, only visited dealer twice since purchase (1st and 2nd Service), I can burn petrol on the open road and save the battery for city driving and queuing, many places I can charge Free. ......

 

I could go on but to be honest I should probably leave the naysayers to it then I will not have to drive around searching for an empty chargepoint;)

 

Average fuel consumption for any PHEV depends entirely on the usage pattern - pity the rules don't require publishing of electric range and petrol consumption in a conventional way.

 

Hybrids and PHEVs are being bought in big numbers for their low/zero BIK tax, numbers not matched among private buyers.

2015 VW Touareg 3. 0 V6 TDI + 2013 Lunar Clubman ES

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1 hour ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

Nobody ever answers the question about how long it takes to overcome the environmental cost of, say, making and installing and commissioning a wind turbine. The view seems to be that it produces free electricity, but how much is embedded in getting it up and running and when is that recovered.

 

You won’t find it because there are multiple variable factors which means the actual answer is ‘it depends’ - that doesn’t suit those who pick up on an average then find and present the angles for which those that don’t meet this ‘clearly’ demonstrate we are all being lied to/ duped/ sucked in by this.

 

You could argue carbon-based energy sources have got to the level of coverage in the market, prior to the serious development of renewables, due to a level of government financial support over the years.

 

As technology improves (look at the range v price of the first Zoe v the range and price of the current versions for a useful comparrison) so the environmental cost per KW reduces.

 

Ultimatley, if we consume then we ‘take’ so there will always be an environmental cost to each option.

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2 hours ago, Muddywheels said:

For anyone interested in Facts not Opinions/Rumours I have achieved genuine 80 mpg petrol consumption over last 2 years/21400 miles tracked by Fuelly not estimates (I have tried to post link before but it was deleted) - worst 3 tanks were 34. 7, 40. 2 and 33. 4 mpg on touring holidays with no access to charging facilities - obviously when charging it is much better overall as shown by my 2 year average

 

So in FACT you havent achieved 80 mpg because electricity was used. You do quote FACTS of 34 mpg when the batteries were flat which is more believable. If you charged it up every day and only did journeys within the electric range you may as well quote 'infinite' mpg or 1000 mpg because theyre completely and utterly meaningless figures.

 

The cost to charge, the range (especially with heating or aircon running) are much more interesting figure.

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