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Diesel "rechipping" ...


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Why do most manufactures "tune to the middle of the road".

 

Durability. ... Type approval. Safety. Emission control. Margins of alteration for solutions for unforseen technical issues.

 

Complete design . ... Engine output to match the vehicle design. Transmission, suspension, braking, emmisions tax classification. service scheduals, warranty classification and Durabity.

 

:(

 

So why would a manufacturer offer an upgrade or power output without uprating anything else as a mentioned above? I quite agree with you about the durability aspect but there is more to it than just that

2015 Ford Kuga CDTI Titanium X, towing an Elddis EX2000 Hurricane.

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I think you will be lucky to get any "real world" negative comments. Very few people like to admit they paid good money for something that doesn't meet their expectations or the makers claims. (unle

Well, seem to have opened up several cans of worms here . ...   My car isn't within warranty so I have no worries there, and it has plenty of power already for towing. I would pay good money to im

So £600 to increase power, along with all the baggage that comes with it, from reading the link.   Personally I think its more cost effective to buy the more powerful version to begin with? Probab

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I remain unconvinced. When a manufacturer markets a car they tend to quote certain figures to entice you to buy. Among these are MPG, emissions and power. If it was easy to improve these figures simply by plugging in a box or a laptop and hitting a few keys I can't help thinking they would. B)

often an engine is supplied by a rival manufacturer who wants their car to be better and so they will only supply a lower spec engine to their rival. apparently BMW did just this

macafee2

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So why would a manufacturer offer an upgrade or power output without uprating anything else as a mentioned above? I quite agree with you about the durability aspect but there is more to it than just that

 

Depends on the upgrade if any, also it will be manufacturer model type specific and not open to all model rangers (that's what's this posts about)

 

Cant remember exactly but I'm sure the Rover factory Xpower upgrade, included suspension brakes and oil cooling. please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Question . .. If you chip your 2 year pride and joy and it knocks a crank shell out. Will the manufacturers warranty cover the repair ?

Edited by Gaz40
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I would suggest joining a car forum for your car would give more informed advice and suggestions to who to use. There may even me members of that forum that have the professional skill to remap your car for less then going to a tuning company

 

macafee2

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often an engine is supplied by a rival manufacturer who wants their car to be better and so they will only supply a lower spec engine to their rival. apparently BMW did just this

macafee2

If a engine is supplied by a "rival" manufacturer. They by default are no longer a rival but a partner in that companies vehicle development. :)

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Cant remember exactly but I'm sure the Rover factory Xpower upgrade, included suspension brakes and oil cooling. please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

 

I looked into it when I had my Rover - it was simply a software upgrade - basically a remap that was done via a T4 service machine at your local MG- Rover dealer.

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I looked into it when I had my Rover - it was simply a software upgrade - basically a remap that was done via a T4 service machine at your local MG- Rover dealer.

I don't think the factory option was, but I'll ask the question. :)

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Manufacturers blurb . ... How very wrong.

 

The vehicles mpg stats quoted come from the NEDC European body. They do the mpg test and the manufacturer cannot quote anything different.

 

http://www. autofuelfix. com/blog/car-manufacturers-mpg-claims-cant-achieve

 

http://en. m. wikipedia. org/wiki/New_European_Driving_Cycle

 

You blame the manufacturers, when its the European governing bodies that test and quote their stats in the brochures. :(

 

Remap . .. Why. ..

 

Do you trust RoverRon more than the manufacture of a engine, who has mapped its performance for optimal power with durability and fuel economy, within the vehicles complete design.

Yes but the manufacturer provides the vehicle for the test, don't you think they optimise the vehicle to obtain the best possible rating beforehand. True they then cannot recalibrate afterwards but the manufacturer knows exactly what the test involves and they also have a damned good idea what the results will be before it goes for test.

 

The manufacturers primary aim is to achieve optimal performance but his interest is in that new vehicle and how it performs in terms of economy and reliability within a fixed time frame, his only interest in the longer term is reputation. No one should be contemplating retune or performance modules in the early life of the vehicle, particularly within warranty. The Synergy box and others like it can be based on older, looser engines.

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Yes but the manufacturer provides the vehicle for the test, don't you think they optimise the vehicle to obtain the best possible rating beforehand. True they then cannot recalibrate afterwards but the manufacturer knows exactly what the test involves and they also have a damned good idea what the results will be before it goes for test.

 

The manufacturers primary aim is to achieve optimal performance but his interest is in that new vehicle and how it performs in terms of economy and reliability within a fixed time frame, his only interest in the longer term is reputation. No one should be contemplating retune or performance modules in the early life of the vehicle, particularly within warranty. The Synergy box and others like it can be based on older, looser engines.

 

 

The manufacturer designs the vehicle and the mpg test is independent from the manufacturer. You may find its European parliaments that wants the better results to prove their laws are working :( I wouldn't be that hard on the manufacture :)

 

Tell me . ... Before you start "re- chipping" . .. How long is the latest European stamped engine expected life cycle ???? And what are your consumer rights, in terms of usage and time ????

delphi-worldwide-emissions-standards-hd-ohv-2014-15. pdf

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If you don't fancy paying the extra on insurance or just don't trust that a re-map will do anything, then how about a getting a proper engine de-coke done instead - or have it done even if you are getting a re-map. Builder friend of mine has several vehicles, a few of which are classics & he swears by a de-coke, says it improves everything - power, mpg, reliability.

 

Just a thought.

I refer you to the Rt Hon Member for the 19th Century.....................pictured just to the left of your screen..................

 

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First of all your car is not "remapped" it's fooled into thinking the fuel pressure is lower that it actually is or the MAF/boost pressure sensor is lower than expected. This results in more fuel being injected and hence more power. The idea that some massive company somewhere is getting hold of every car available on our roads then remapping every cell in every rev range in every load range is la la land. At best it's some spotty teenager altering small parts of the EMS software. So long as you understand this then it's up to you, your car will go better but the only possible way it can save fuel is by it getting to cruise speed earlier. There is no magic extra power for less fuel, if there was don't you think the manufacturers would have already done it? Also be aware more fuel injected during the acceleration phase equals more smoke out of the tailpipe, we've all followed diesels pouring clouds out while accelerating it's quite possible they have been remapped.

Edited by fredsautos
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often an engine is supplied by a rival manufacturer who wants their car to be better and so they will only supply a lower spec engine to their rival. apparently BMW did just this

macafee2

BMW routinely quote lower output than actually achieved - keeps their owners happy with lower insurance premiums and allows the EU test figures to be massaged a bit more.

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Well Rael, looks like you were sold a pup. Should have bought an old Cortina and had a word with a geezer down a back alley. He could have sold you a "box" that would have given you the same power as the A6 for a fraction of the fuel usage. Audi engineers? What do they know about anything. ;)

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Indeed, but surely as the power goes up the MPG will come down?

 

Not necessarily! The manufacturers mapping is set to achieve the best results under artificial test conditions so that they get nice numbers to publish. The real world is a different place! Modest power increase can come with better mpg in the real world, but not huge increases.

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Depends on the upgrade if any, also it will be manufacturer model type specific and not open to all model rangers (that's what's this posts about)

Cant remember exactly but I'm sure the Rover factory Xpower upgrade, included suspension brakes and oil cooling. please correct me if I'm wrong.

Question . .. If you chip your 2 year pride and joy and it knocks a crank shell out. Will the manufacturers warranty cover the repair ?

Volvo is a good example with the 'Polstar' upgrade tune. .. No additional parts required, it was just a mild dealer option re-map service. .. With full Volvo backing it would seem.

An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind.

Mahatma Gandhi

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The manufacturer designs the vehicle and the mpg test is independent from the manufacturer. You may find its European parliaments that wants the better results to prove their laws are working :( I wouldn't be that hard on the manufacture :)

 

Tell me . ... Before you start "re- chipping" . .. How long is the latest European stamped engine expected life cycle ???? And what are your consumer rights, in terms of usage and time ????

Like any modification from factory default any defined specification or warranty is nullified, that's why I would not recommend such work within such a period. The fact is getting warranty to be accepted outside the stated limits is nigh on impossible anyway so what does it matter, if an unmodified engine can fail prematurely within that "expected life cycle" the manufacturer does not warranty it will be achieved.

 

Mechanical systems can be perverse at the best of times no matter how well made, back when most F1 cars had Cosworth certain block numbers would never survive a whole race.

 

My own engine is available at two power ratings (with cost differences) yet they are essentially the same engine. In fact they are all 190ps engines off of the engine production line, the TD4 gets remapped down to 150ps when it gets married to it ECU in the car production line.

 

This blind acceptance that the manufacturer knows best has to be tempered with what their parameters are. They are different as the producer of a new, warrantied mass market product compared to the private owner of an individual personal 5 year old pride and joy. With a car the number of people involved and testing irons out suspect design, there are some fairly daft ideas in my van.

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Indeed, but surely as the power goes up the MPG will come down?

 

 

No not at all.

 

Take the 116i and 118i. They both use the same 1. 6 Turbo Charged petrol engine but the 116i has it's power output clipped at higher revs in the mapping.

 

The automatic versions have the same gearing and have identical economy figures. That's because during normal driving and the EU test the engines have the same mechanicals and similar mapping.

It's only when the revs get higher and the mapping curtails the 116i's boost pressure and fueling that the 118i extra power can be felt and extra fuel will be used.

 

The same base 1. 6T engine is available in three different power outputs. 75kW, 100kW and 125kW, easy to see how they slip into the price sectors. All will map to around 150kW (200bhp) which is the output the engine is tuned too in the higher output Mini's. As for the gearbox, if you select the auto the same gearbox is fitted on all variants from 115bhp to 320bhp.

 

BMW take the model placement even further, there is a top speed limiter on the two lower models that isn't published but has been found by the tuning companies. It's done for marketing reasons. ie 114i = 120mph, 116i = 130mph, 118i = 140mph, 125i = 150mph, 135i = 155mph(Limited)

 

It's cheaper for manufactures to offer similar units with differing power outputs than it is to build bespoke engines and gearboxes for each model.

 

Makes remapping safe with big gains possible, you just need to research your own model and the tuning company before hand. Not all models are safe to remap and are already on the limit of the engine or drivetrain.

 

Lee

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But the point is that the "super duper chips r us" remap isn't anywhere near the same as the higher output BMW version which is properly developed not hacked into existing software. Might both say the same hp output but I know which I would trust

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But the point is that the "super duper chips r us" remap isn't anywhere near the same as the higher output BMW version which is properly developed not hacked into existing software. Might both say the same hp output but I know which I would trust

 

The tuner isn't rewriting software from scratch, usually it's more a case of looking where parameters have been capped due to the power cap imposed by the manufacturer or where parts of the rev range have been limited due to the manufacturer wanting to optimise the EU tests and noise levels. ECU coding is pretty generic, you are not writing code, think of it as more changing values in a spread sheet.

 

A good tuner with full rolling road and diagnostics will have no need to lift any of the manufacturers safety limits but will be able to optimise the map without having the limitations of market segments or EU tests.

 

In the case where two engines are mechanically the same but have different parameters in the ECU a tuner could just make the lower powered versions parameters the same as the higher output parameters. But usually there are more gains to be had as the manufacturer always slants the map to achieve good EU test results under the lab conditions.

 

Manufacturers know this and this is why every generation of ECU gets tighter and tighter security. Tuners have only recently cracked the latest VAG ECU's. The latest BMW ECU's still have not been cracked yet so only piggy back ECU's or tuning boxes are available. Even the known BMW tuners like AC Schnitzer are having to offer piggy back ECU's but offer full 3 year warranty on Engine and Drive train.

How are BMW dealing with this? Well it gives them chance to offer their own remaps and replacement ECU's as part of "Performance Power Kit"

Like the 125i which has the same engine as the 328i but with less power. Buy the BMW "Performance Power Kit" and hey presto you can have the same power as a 328i.

A four figure some for BMW for a few different parameters.

 

As ever you need to do research and locate specialist who are favoured for your type of car. ie for VAG and Volvo Shark Performance is probably the best in the UK but not the cheapest. This is because they buy their own development vehicles and spend a large amount of development work on the dyno.

Oufits without this type of facility are best avoided.

 

 

Lee

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But the point is that the "super duper chips r us" remap isn't anywhere near the same as the higher output BMW version which is properly developed not hacked into existing software. Might both say the same hp output but I know which I would trust

 

 

http://www. telegraph. co. uk/motoring/news/9826964/Can-you-improve-economy-by-chipping-your-cars-engine. html

 

Question for the "chippers" or "navigators" are there any other engine peripheral differences against a manufactures re-map on the same engine block of a standard production vehicle. Also what are the legal obligations of type approval, taxation class, emissions legislation, not just Insurance.

 

A lot of posts have mentioned VAG and BMW engine re-maps but Mercedes - Benz are totally against any engine management adjustments. ......

 

Mercedes-Benz says that the complexity of remapping means that vehicle manufacturers cannot take into account all the possible effects that it may have on elements like vehicle integrity, handling, reliability, safety, compliance with legislative requirements and conformity to the base vehicle’s European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval.

 

Steve Bridge, managing director of Mercedes-Benz Vans, says: “We do not approve any amendment in the vehicle’s engine control software and any unapproved modification breaches the terms in our manufacturer guidelines.

 

“Automatically, this then invalidates the warranty of the engine, drivetrain, exhaust system and electrical control units and any other associated components, so as a result, any modifications remain the responsibility of the entity carrying out the conversion.”

 

Bridge also stressed that any owner or operator considering such modification should understand the full extent of legislation such as Construction and Use Regulations, especially the issue of the emissions approval owing to ‘in-service conformity’ and ‘durability of pollution control devices’ requirements in both European and local legislation as accountability for operation of a non-compliant vehicle would remain with them.

 

He says: “We would advise that operators should obtain written confirmation from the nominated convertor in respect to having obtained the necessary approvals from the regulatory authorities to remain in compliance with the requirements of both European and local legislation for the purposes of both type approval and in-service conformity.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Also . .... Would the maximum towing limit be the same of a vehicle that's had a none manufactures retro re-map. Lets say a vehicle gained 20bhp from the original spec after a "chip" would that vehicles towing limit be the same as the production spec. (What's one of the scientific gains of peak combustion :blink:)

Edited by Gaz40
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There are big exceptions to all of this, the VW 1. 9TDI engines as fitted to the Golf Mk4 had 90, 110, 115, 130 and 150Bhp versions, the 150 was not simply a 're-mapped' 130, it had different head bolts and turbo I think. It's not always just a simple matter of factory de-tuning them.

An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind.

Mahatma Gandhi

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Just what is the benefit of being able to "hang on in 6th gear longer" if you do not see better mpg? The only reason I ever use 6th is for better mpg!

 

To me it implies more power but with out a penalty in fuel usage.

 

Just what I would expect from a boost in efficiency.

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Agreed, I may not be exactly right but I believe the original BMW mini one 1. 6 was 90bhp, the EXACT same engine in the cooper giving out 130bhp. .. A small re-tune and hey-presto 130bhp mini one. Save yourself a few grand.

 

This engine was very heavy on fuel though.

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Anybody with a VAG engine should have a look here. mrctuning. com a lot of the cars they work on don't actually get remapped they just sort out the faults that the owner was unaware of.

 

I don't have one but have driven a few of their remapped ones.

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