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Posts posted by Lutz

  1. 3 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

    My caravan green card *issued by car insurer LV) only shows the make and model of the caravan! No VIN CRiS or other identifier. There’s no point in showing a VIN number because all a Green Card does is confirm the existence of insurance against third party claims. It matters not whatever causes any third party damage, all “The authorities” are interested in is if there is some form of insurance in force. 


    It is a legal requirement for any vehicle used on a public road to be covered by third party insurance. Without the VIN (or registration number in the case of foreign caravans that are registered) quoted on the Green Card who is to know whether the particular caravan in question is covered or not?

  2. If you really want legal cover insurance I would have thought that it's cheaper to have a blanket policy to cover all eventualities, not just isolated for each individual item, such as for the car or caravan. I have two, one from the automobile club for all traffic related issues and another private legal cover insurance for all contractual and personal issues.

  3. 19 hours ago, Fenester said:

    But the caravan is not insured by that company....? It is car that is insured and responsible for third party damage so why a second one?


    But who is to know that the caravan is also covered for third party claims if the Green Card doesn't show it?


    18 hours ago, Fenester said:

    Thanks,,,,  Not a big deal, I suppose.  I asked because in the old days, prior to the EU, the green card covered the car and trailer.  I suppose you have to declare to the cars insurer the CRiS number make and model of the caravan?


    Strictly speaking it should be the caravan manufacturer's VIN number, not the CRiS number, because not all caravans are CRiS registered.

  4. 50 minutes ago, Legal Eagle said:

    When I purchased, new, our 2015 Swift it came with its C of C and when I later obtained the MTPLM upgrade it included a new C of C.


    The type approval C of C will normally already show the "upgraded" MTPLM. Are you sure you are not referring to the NCC C of C? If it doesn't quote the type approval number it's not an official document.

  5. 2 minutes ago, Fenester said:

    We bought a SWift in the autumn of 2020 ; it came with a C of C, although the weight on the cert, was different to the door plate prior to us paying for the upgrade,


    Well, things may have changed recently then.


    The details on the C of C (and the statutory plate, usually in the front locker) are the only definitive ones. If there is a label by the door displaying a different figure then this is for marketing purposes only, in line with NCC practice.

  6. 1 hour ago, Towtug said:

    The regulation says, that


    "The Certificate of Conformity shall be delivered free of charge to the buyer, together with the vehicle. Its delivery may not be made dependent on an e explicit request, or on the submission of additional information to the manufacturer "


    The inclusion of the word shall, means in the general parlance of EU documents,  must.



    From the responses to this and other forums I have not come across any UK owner who has confirmed receipt of the C of C unless specifically requested in cases where it is required due to the owner moving abroad and having to register his car or caravan there.

  7. 2 hours ago, Towtug said:

    You might be interested to know that the latest iteration of Whole vehicle type approval which came into force last September,  requires the actual mass (albeit calculated rather than measured) to be recorded on the C of C , this will account for all factory fitted provision, included in the Type Variant and Version list.  Dealer fitted options are not recorded but should be advised where the fitment could affect calculations used for load carrying or towing .


    Other changes will mean the C of C will also need to show the actual manufacture date of the vehicle.



    That's all very well and good, but to my knowledge C of C's aren't passed on to the end user as a matter of course in the UK, so the owner won't normally be informed of the actual mass.

  8. 1 hour ago, Stevan said:

    This video, and others like it, clearly show that stability is not just about speed, and their actual speed was so much higher than any supposed "threshold speed" that the whole concept of a "threshold speed" is pretty much discredited.


    Not really. Any outfit will remain stable at any speed if conditions are perfect, but disaster is almost inevitable as soon as there is some sort of disturbance.

  9. The reason why a caravan towed for a land speed record attempt was able to exceed the threshold or critical speed without the worst happening was because extreme care was taken to ensure absolutely perfect conditions so that not the slightest sign of instability occurred.

    • Like 1
  10. 44 minutes ago, JTQ said:


    Being pedantic that's only if that increased speed moves closer to the natural frequency; one can actually increase speed to move to a more stable situation!



    Research has shown that the natural frequency of the average car/caravan combination occurs at round about 50 to 60mph. Much above that the outfit will not regain stability of its own accord if instability occurs without some sort of external corrective action. The likelihood of being able to pass through the natural frequency and back into a stable condition at a higher speed is pretty remote and should not be attempted.

  11. 16 minutes ago, Stevan said:

    Wildwood, Lutz and SDA all make valid points, each adding a bit to the overall picture.

    However that overall picture is even bigger and contains even more factors not yet discussed in this thread, nor do any of us fully understand how each of these factors interact.

    The following is a short list of some of the other factors:-

    1. Aerodynamics, a large box with a high surface area will behave differently at speed to a flatbed trailer even if the weight distribution in the horizontal plane is identical. The position of the aerodynamic centre of pressure relative  to the centre of gravity and the pivot points (axle and/or hitch) must also have a bearing (trying to throw a dart flights first!).

    2. Vertical weight distribution. We know that top heavy cannot be good, but how bad and under what circumstances.

    3. Oversimplification of "instability". We simply do not fully understand how each of these factors affect the transition from a minor wobble into a full blown fishtail.

    4. Is there a relationship between the height of the centre of gravity of the tow vehicle and the hitch height?

    5. Is there a relationship between the height of the centre of gravity of the caravan and the height of the aerodynamic Centre of pressure?


    So many factors, so many questions, so few answers!


    My comments to the above:


    To item 1

    You have a valid point there.


    To item 2

    It kind of goes hand-in-hand with items 1 and 5


    To item 3

    The difference between a 'minor wobble' and a 'full blown fishtail' is driven by speed alone. Any minor wobble can develop into a full blown fishtail if the speed in increased although the threshold speed at which it will happen is specific to each outfit combination.

    A lightly laden caravan may be a trifle more twitchy than a fully laden one, but that doesn't make it any less stable. Instability is the potential for an outfit to get out of control if no active intervention is taken. If the outfit is able to recover by itself without such action it is not considered to be unstable.


    To item 4

    Probably for the average towcar there will be relatively little difference between these two heights - unlikely to be enough to have very much effect. The rear overhang from the back axle to the towball will have a greater effect, as will the lateral compliance of the rear suspension and tyre equipment in particular.


    To item 5

    The relationship between the two heights will undoubtedly have an effect, but by how much is very difficult to say as it is a very complex issue.

  12. Actually, breaking it down to an issue of relative weights between the towing vehicle and the caravan is an oversimplification. It is not just the weights of the two vehicles which determine the stability of the outfit, but their polar moments of inertia, but that would be getting too technical as such data is not readily available and few would be able to interpret the data even if they had it. However, relative moments of inertia would explain why a flatbed trailer weighing the same as a caravan of the same size will be inherently more stable than the caravan or why a short caravan of the same weight as a long one will normally also be more stable.

    • I agree completely 1
  13. 1 hour ago, Mr Plodd said:


    Quite possibly, but if I ever wanted to search somebody it was a requirement to explain why AND quote the piece of legislation I was operating under AND provide a written copy of my reasons and the search result.

    I just wanted to know under what legislation she was working under, she clearly didn’t have a clue and that, to my mind, is simply not acceptable. “I’m security” is NOT good enough. 

    I was driving an almost new expensive car, with two occupants in their 60’s. directly ahead of me, and waved through by her, was a very old and beat up home converted Sherpa van with 4 crustys in it.  I was clearly less likely to have anything wrong, so an “easier” stop perhaps ?? 


    I would have thought that "security" is not entitled to carry out a thorough search of a vehicle, but only HM Customs & Excise or Border Force. I would be surprised if there is any legislation that allows such a task to be delegated to an outside source.

  14. 4 minutes ago, Jaydug said:

    I agree!   It's very similar to the allowances which applied before we joined the EU, when returning from Europe.   As I remember, as far as beer and wine were concerned, it was either/or, whereas now there's an allowance for each.   It will however, probably sound the death knell for the several wine warehouses in Calais


    Not necessarily. If they are clever they will make arrangements to sell for export without charging French VAT, just like a duty free shop at the airport.

  15. On 28/12/2020 at 12:19, Wildwood said:

    The towing capacity is the total it can restart five times on a 12% hill and is a test of the strength of the drive line rather than anything to do with safety.



    Actually, the towing limits are determined by test without regard for the type of trailer. On the basis of ride and handling tests carried out during the course of development, manufacturers set towing limits as ultimate limits, assuming an experienced driver, ideal road and weather conditions and optimal trailer weight distribution. Allowances must be made if any or all of these factors are unfavourable. The ability to start on a 12% incline is all that the regulations require, but any self-respecting manufacturer will go further than that. After all, he carries full product liability with respect to all specifications that he publishes.

    • Like 1
  16. 1 hour ago, Paul1957 said:

    If you do not know your car kerb weight have a look at its V5C registration document where it will give its mass in service which should be 75 kg more than the kerb weight.


    Actually, more likely than not, the true kerbweight is more than mass in service because mass in service refers to the vehicle which the manufacturer submitted for type approval, which is usually a base model with a minimum of factory fitted options, not the actual weight of the vehicle in question. The difference is often quite a bit more than the 75kg for the driver that I think you are referring to.

  17. 3 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

    I/we have no need of a second car. That’s not to say I wouldn’t like a toy though ;)


    I'm with you on that, but mine would be somewhat less pretentious - maybe something like a 1955 Riley Pathfinder, an Armstrong Siddeley Sapphire  or something similar.

  18. 21 minutes ago, reluctant said:

    Thanks Lutz,


    That might explain why, having only read the primary UK legislation and not the EU documents later referenced in Statutory Instruments I have not seen any mention in UK legislation...I wonder if it will all be re-written after December 31st with Boris gleefully removing all reference to EU documents:lol:


    There must be hundreds, if not thousands, of references to EU directives and regulations in current UK legislation. They'll all have to go through parliament first so it'll probably take several years to re-write them all, as there will surely be more important things to do first.

    On the other hand, it would be a good opportunity to clear the current mess up. Depending on when first written, UK legislation, for example, refers to unladen weight, kerb side weight <sic>, mass in running order, mass in service - all very similar, but very often with slightly different meanings which only serve to confuse.

  19. 4 minutes ago, Grandpa Steve said:


    I think you mean Maximum Technically Permissible Laden Mass to fit the acronym!


    I was quoting the actual terminology as stated in the regulations. The acronym is not strictly in line with the terminology, but I think we all know what is meant.

  20. 1 hour ago, reluctant said:

    Do you mind if I ask which UK legislation mentions MTPLM as I am only aware of legislation mentioning MPLM?


    Various UK Statutory Instruments with regard to Road Vehicle Construction and Use Regulations refer to 97/27/EC and 1230/2012/EC, both of which use the term "Technically Permissible Maximum Laden Mass" which we normally abbreviate to MTPLM.

    • Thanks 1
  21. To be strictly correct, according to the wording of legislation, the terms MTPLM and MRO apply just as much to the towing vehicle as they do to the trailer. It's just that conventionally one doesn't refer to MTPLM when talking about the towing vehicle.

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