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Lutz

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Posts posted by Lutz

  1. 3 hours ago, Whomer said:

    It costs @£150 to bump up the axle/tyres to the next weight up as a factory fit option.

    If manufacturers wanted to, they could do it .

    300kg should be the minimum acceptable standard.

     

    Just as an example, Hobby ask €398 to raise the MTPLM from 1600kg to 1750kg on their 540KMF and  €891 (with silver alloy wheels) to up it to 2000kg, or €1020 if you want black alloy wheels, so there's a good profit margin there for the taking. Surely that would be a lucrative opportunity for UK manufacturers, too. I've never understood why they don't take advantage of it.

  2. That's right. Certain technical conditions must be fulfilled in order to be able to tow at 100km/h instead of the regular 80km/h speed limit that applies to all trailers, and these conditions are quite differentiated. For example, if the trailer isn't fitted with hydraulic shock absorbers the weight ratio limit is only 30%. Fulfilment of other conditions will allow towing at 100km/h with weight ratios up to 120%.

    German caravanning magazines always test tow cars at their towload limit. The caravans are ballasted accordingly.

  3. 6 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

    But of course any such vehicle sourced would not be “U.K. spec” left hand drive, headlights dipping the wrong way amongst many other issues, so firstly it would attract a higher insurance premium and possibly not be covered by the new car warranty.

     

    Unless you bought it in the Republic of Ireland, of course. Then you'd only have to change the speedometer.

  4. 30 minutes ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

    The reason I made the point is that the MIRO figure that UK manufacturers use is for a much better specced van than Hymer use for the Eriba Touring range.

    The Touring cost options include: alloy wheels, battery charger and additional sockets,  electric 5L boiler, or gas/electric 10L boiler, electric element for the gas space heater, metal sprung upholstery instead of foam rubber, 3 burner hob instead of 2  burner,  shower pack, silver smooth body instead of white dimpled, blue or red exterior and interior trim, grey/ white smooth exterior with white interior trim, carpet, fresh and waste tanks, safe in floor, choice of three or four upholstery fabrics, extra lighting, sink cover/chopping board, odds and end bags, the list goes on.

    And an oven and microwave aren't even an option because there's nowhere to fit them.

     

     

    That's true, but only because UK manufacturers don't offer many options. Those that you list for the Touring are only a fraction of what is available on the German market. The options that they are offered often fill pages of the price list. The price list for my BMW had 52 pages. It took me the best part of two hours to go through it with the salesman when I ordered mine. In some cases one can even order different versions of the same option, such as different finishes of brightwork (matt, gloss, brushed, black, etc.).

     

  5. 36 minutes ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

    As to the Eriba,Touring range the MIRO quoted are for a poverty spec van, which when specced up to normal UK standards yields an available payload of around 150kg.

     

     

    By definition, MIRO is always for the "poverty spec", or at least as basic as it comes. If it isn't, it's not MIRO, but actual unladen weight. That's why relying on MIRO is so misleading.

  6. 1 minute ago, JTQ said:

     

    No, power level only dictates how fast you get over the hill.

    Whilst, to move there has to be power, it's just the torque that power can be delivered at that does "work", force x distance.

     

    No, power is what dictates whether you get over the hill at all, whatever the speed.

    Just now, Mr Plodd said:

     

    Really???

     

    There were precious few, if any, mass produced petrol engine that would stay in one piece at much over 5500 rpm, if they could even get that high without valve bounce!! At 7000 rpm most would very quickly find a con rod sticking through the side of the engine block.

     

    Yes, my Opel (Vauxhall) Vectra 1.8 was redlined at 7000prm.

  7. When I started my caravanning career, before the days of turbocharged engines, the needle would regularly hit 7000rpm when negotiating steep hills. Thankfully, that's a thing of the past, even with modern petrol engines. Some even achieve maximum torque at lower engine speeds than a diesel, but I agree with Mr Plodd that the diesel is more economical.

  8. 22 minutes ago, Readingblue said:

    Is it not a bit chicken and egg?

     

    With a Motorhome you are almost forced to relocate every day or two to see different places unless you pull a towcar.

     

    With a caravan you can do day trips of 30 or 50 or 100 miles quite easily without the need to relocate.

     

    So ones behaviour adjusts to the pros and cons of the two outfit options, as opposed to the other way around.

     

    Regards setup, we have become very efficient in terms of how we pack up and unpack with the van. It's really quick and the small Leggera porch awning takes less than 15 minutes to put up and most of that time is popping in a dozen pegs...

     

     

     

    I see it rather the other way round. Whenever we intend to stay primarily at one location, such as for overwintering, and use that as a hub for day trips in a radius of no more than, say, 50 miles, we take our caravan. For extended touring across the whole continent we rent a motorhome.

  9. 1 hour ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

    I know some UK manufacturers have started putting MIRO on their NCC plates or the combined NCC and mandatory plates, but it may not be all, though as they're gradually getting fewer maybe by now it is all.

     

    To my knowledge, the NCC label always displays a MIRO although I have no idea what it is supposed to represent. Is it the MIRO that the manufacturer has had type approved or is it a misnomer for unladen weight?

  10. 35 minutes ago, logiclee said:

     

    But again we are discussing terminology and definitions.

     

    UK customers cannot forget about MiRO as it's on every weight plate/sticker.

     

     

    The source that you are quoting is equally ambiguous. It says, "MiRo or Mass in Running Order is the weight of the standard caravan with no payload". From that one could assume that it's the weight of the caravan in question. However, the manufacturer, who is bound by the official type approval process, will quote the weight of the one caravan of that model that he submitted for type approval, because that is what is required of him. Hence the confusion.

    Mass in Service/Mass in Running Order for a car is similar. It can vary quite substantially from the actual weight (more or less the same as kerbweight) because kerbweight and actual weight are specific to the car in question, but mass in service/mass in running order isn't. That explains the 85kg difference in the same document between MIRO and the actual weight of my car. I think you will agree that such a difference is quite substantial. (I have known differences of up to 150kg.)

  11. 25 minutes ago, logiclee said:

     

    My point is I could check the unladen weight of the caravan against what is quoted on the caravans stickered MIRO.

     

    This would then give me my true payload allowance so not to exceed MTPLM 

     

    I'm not really interested in CoC, type approval or which regulation is in force but not exceeding MTPLM is critical.  

     

    To check the unladen weight on a weighbridge and forget about the MIRO is the safest way to go.

     

    My point about the CoC is that it does document "actual mass". It's just unfortunate that most people don't have access to this certificate as an alternative to actually putting the caravan on a weighbridge.

     

    24 minutes ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

     

    Elddis don't make the 302 but I've just checked the options page for the 304 and the way its worded could be confusing. It says something like 'dealer fitted options can use up payload', which is fair enough, but I believe the SE Pack is factory fitted which, by the inference of their own words, suggests it doesn't use up payload. Obviously if the published weight is for a poverty spec. van then anything like the SE Pack has to use up payload, these things have to weigh something but the wording isn't as clear as it could be.

     

    Without knowing how Elddis had the caravan with the SE Pack type approved we won't know whether they have provided for a specific MIRO for that variant or not.

  12. 10 minutes ago, Flatcoat888 said:

     But in practice that is how it is conveyed to the average (99% of) buyer! I am not criticising your clarification of the legal interpretation but you have to agree it is wholly unsatisfactory. 

     

    I agree, the situation is unsatisfactory because too many sources either misinterpret MIRO themselves or they convey an incorrect interpretation. If one side, like the manufacturer, sticks to the true definition of MIRO and the other, the owner, thinks that it's the ex-works weight of his particular caravan, that's bound to lead to confusion. It would be best to dissociate one's self from MIRO altogether and introduce a new term that everyone can understand and adhere to. In the type approval process they seem to have appreciated the problem and added the term "actual mass" to differentiate it from MIRO. The trouble is that, in the UK, the certificate that documents actual mass is not normally passed on to the consumer. On the Continent, where caravans are registered, it is essential for the owner to have the type approval certificate because without it, it is impossible to register the caravan.

    We have a similar situation with cars, where there is often confusion, even by manufacturers, between kerbweight and MIRO (Mass in Service).

  13. 47 minutes ago, logiclee said:

    Dealer fit options and movers I can see being a problem but do they actually leave the factory with the MIRO significantly wrong? Has anyone checked?

     

    You can't check the MIRO because that's the weight of the caravan that the manufacturer submitted for type approval and you won't have access to it.

    One has got to be clear in one's mind that MIRO is not the unladen weight of your particular caravan.

  14. 28 minutes ago, Flatcoat888 said:

    I agree with Steamdriven to some extent but why not have a certified maximum MIRO weight for each caravan? That would in turn provide a minimum payload. Instead of looking constantly for excuses why manufacturers do what they do there needs to be pressure brought by threat of legislation to change. However I will not hold my breath on the clubs leading that process…… if I ever win big on the lottery I intend taking on the caravan industry either by challenging via a consumer/user group or setting up a disrupter competitor company. 
     

    in the meantime unless you weigh your caravan at the start of each journey there is no certainty.

     

    There is no such thing as a maximum MIRO because  the certified MIRO is only applicable to the one caravan that was submitted for type approval. Anything else is not a MIRO at all, but an unladen (or actual) weight, and the latter is already documented under Item 13.2 in the type approval document.

    Weighing the caravan at the start of each journey is the only 100% reliable method although it is going over the top a bit unless one loads it differently each time. Under normal conditions, where one packs the caravan almost identically each time, it is unlikely for the weight of the caravan will vary by much more than a handful of kilos. If those handful of kilos are going to worry you, you've chosen the wrong caravan in the first place.

    As a first step it would be worthwhile demanding a copy of the type approval certificate which documents both the MIRO and the actual weight.

  15. 23 minutes ago, Flatcoat888 said:

    How successful would I be in claiming the same 5% tolerance if told I was over the MTPLM by 70kg, or just under 5%? Or are the manufacturers allowed a tolerance not permitted for the public and in effect resulting in a caravanner being prosecuted through the application of different less tolerant standards? 

     

    The 5% tolerance on what figure? Presumably you would want it on what the manufacturer claims the actual weight would be, but unless you are in possession of the type approval certificate, which you probably aren't, you wouldn't know what the nominal unladen weight is.

    However, if you mean the MTPLM then you are at the mercy of the officer-in-charge unless you are able to gain access to the calibration report for the scales that he happens to be using.

  16. A tolerance on the Mass in Service figure is largely irrelevant to the consumer as it doesn’t claim to reflect the actual weight of the vehicle (caravan) in question, even though this may be a widespread belief.

  17. 5 minutes ago, Flatcoat888 said:

    So how much tolerance are you allowed on the MTPLM or if pulled by the boys in blue? How much tolerance is allowed for a car Mass in Service weight on the V5? 


    I’ve no idea what the calibration tolerance on their equipment is. Beyond that it’s a matter of discretion.

    My understanding is that trading standards allow a 5% tolerance, and that would presumably include Mass in Service, but I may be wrong.

  18. 5 hours ago, Griff said:

     

    That is a red herring, it is an accurate initial starting weight that most of us are referring to here.

     

    How accurately a purchaser weighs a caravans contents is up to them but for those of us with a modicum of common sense we would ensure that all items were at least accounted for and weighed accordingly.

     

     

     

    How accurate would you expect an ex-works unladen weight figure to be? I don't think that any manufacturer would be willing to go along with any requirement to specify a figure with a tighter tolerance than what is already allowed under existing trading standards.

  19. 1 hour ago, Towtug said:

    Dealers should be considered as Second Stage manufacturers Unless those options are fitted by the manufacturer where their effect can be properly controlled.

     

    That's hardly a workable solution. I can't see dealers getting involved in any type approval process. Anyway, what, in principle, is the difference between a dealer fitting, say, an air conditioning unit or the owner doing it himself?

    1 hour ago, Legal Eagle said:

    As I said. No interest to UK consumers, only of interest to UK manufacturers wishing to sell products to EU consumers!

     

    It would be to NI consumers!

  20. But as far as roadside weight checks are concerned, MIRO is totally irrelevant. How do you know whether the items that you've put on board are weighed accurately as well or maybe you've even overlooked something that wasn't weighed before it went into the caravan?

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