markriggall25 Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Hi there, I have just purchased a new car and made sure when I bought it that its gross weight is a match with our caravan (2004 Bailey Vendee 1321kg MTPLM) The cars handbook said 2160kg. I have now just received my V5 and it turns out the gross weight is actually 2180kg and not 2160kg as is stated in the handbook. This means that adding the two figures together for gross car and MTPLM 2180KG + 1321KG = 3501KG meaning I am just 1KG over the law. I have spoken to Mercedes and although they agree that the handbook is wrong they said they can not downrate the car VIN as it is not a comercial vehicle. I then phoned the Caravan Club and they advised me that I can speak to Bailey and see if they will downrate my caravan by 1kg from 1321kg to 1320kg. I then phoned VOSA and asked them about the situation and they advised me just to change the plate myself and get a new one made up stating MTPLM 1320kg instead of 1321kg. They just advised me that whatever I change the plate to must not be exceeded but as it is only 1kg it will not make any difference. Can anyone confirm that this advise is correct? I| just seems too easy. Kind regards Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderDave Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 The Vin plate will give the figures the police would use I would check them. Second largest is the GVW. Down plating the caravan would be legal if the caravan has not got plating that is type approved with the type approval number. If not just stick a small plate over the original MTPLM which is legal. I doubt police would worry about a 1kg . Dave Quote Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markriggall25 Posted April 16, 2014 Author Share Posted April 16, 2014 (edited) Hi and thanks for the reply. My caravan only has a worn out sticker on it that contains the caravan details but that sticker is so worn you cant even read the numbers anyway. The only information I have is that given to me in my owners handbook for my caravan. I was thinking about making a new sticker with the amended 1kg 1320kg figure and sticking it over the old one Edited April 16, 2014 by markriggall25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Changing details on a VIN plate amounts to falsification of a legal document. Details can only be changed by the source that issued the plate itself. I would leave everything as it is in the hope that either no-one will ever catch up with the situation as it is or, if one does actually run into a check, the officer in question exercises a reasonable amount of discretion at such a minor infringement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markriggall25 Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 Thanks but if that is the case then why would vosa tell me to do it and the caravan club also a company called svtech who normally deal with motorhomes said he would make me a plate up as caravan plates are not legally binding as they are under 3500kg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Thanks but if that is the case then why would vosa tell me to do it and the caravan club also a company called svtech who normally deal with motorhomes said he would make me a plate up as caravan plates are not legally binding as they are under 3500kg I am surprised at a government agency suggesting something like that. I am sure that whoever told you was not aware of the implications. The company that offered to make up a new plate may be correct so long as the caravan was not built before whole vehicle type approval became a legal requirement. This would have been 29 October 2012 for all new models and will come into effect for all existing ones after 29 October 2014. However, either way has its risks, so why spend money without any certainty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markriggall25 Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 Its a 2004 Bailey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderDave Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) There's no legal reason why you can't down plate . It is done all the time on horse boxes with owners that only have a b licence . They just double side tape a plate over the weight and then if they sell they pull the plate off. You can only then load to the maximum weight shown on the plate. It is now illegal if a caravan is type approved and the plate has the type approval number . The only way now to alter a plate is you have to own the type approval to change the plate . Even the manufacturer can't change a weight plate now but this only effects trailers after 2012. It is illegal to up plate without paperwork to authorise the high weight limit . Dave Edited April 17, 2014 by CommanderDave Quote Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) It is now illegal if a caravan is type approved and the plate has the type approval number . The only way now to alter a plate is you have to own the type approval to change the plate . Even the manufacturer can't change a weight plate now but this only effects trailers after 2012. It simply isn't practical for you to own the type approval to change the plate. The administrative effort and cost, even for an IVA (Individual Vehicle Approval) would probably outweight the benefit as, in effect, it would turn you into a caravan manufacturer in your own right and transfer all rights and responsibilities from the caravan manufacturer to you. It would be easier for the manufacturer to change the plate, if he can be persuaded to do so at a reasonable price because he can spread the costs over other similar requests. Edited April 17, 2014 by Lutz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markriggall25 Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 Bailey have been emailed but they have not replied. They have no phone number for customer services. What would I do if it was say an avondale who no longer exist. Anyway it is only a short term thing as I have a b e driving test booked in may. It is purely so I can get away for easter and do so legally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderDave Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) It simply isn't practical for you to own the type approval to change the plate. The administrative effort and cost, even for an IVA (Individual Vehicle Approval) would probably outweight the benefit as, in effect, it would turn you into a caravan manufacturer in your own right and transfer all rights and responsibilities from the caravan manufacturer to you. It would be easier for the manufacturer to change the plate, if he can be persuaded to do so at a reasonable price because he can spread the costs over other similar requests. Manufacturers have to submit trailers/caravans at different weights to own the type approval to change the weight now . This is why some manufacturers have stopped offering re-plating . They have to have the approval number and change the plate and then supply a CoC for the new plate. It might make them now supply caravans at the higher weight without the extra money they charge for the increase payload . Type approval on caravans starts in October and by then all caravans have to be type approved Dave Edited April 17, 2014 by CommanderDave Quote Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Manufacturers have to submit trailers/caravans at different weights to own the type approval to change the weight now . This is why some manufacturers have stopped offering re-plating . They have to have the approval number and change the plate and then supply a CoC for the new plate. It might make them now supply caravans at the higher weight without the extra money they charge for the increase payload . Type approval on caravans starts in October and by then all caravans have to be type approved Dave You are correct, but the manufacturer can submit a whole range of weights for type approval of the same caravan. My own came with the ex-works option of 1600kg, 1700kg and 1800kg. In the UK, type approval for new models started in October 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markriggall25 Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 Well I'm lost. Anyway just got off the phone to VOSA again and spoke to a Marcus Bristow and reassured me that it is perfectly legal to lower the weight myself as long as I don't exceed that weight on any trailer under 3500kg. He gave me his name and a reference number. I am happy for now. Hope you all have a good Easter. Thanks for your help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) If you have only a Category B and not a B+E licence, then maximum allowable, not actual weights apply for the 3500kg limit on the sum of the car's max. GVW and the MTPLM of the caravan. Marcus Bristow should have known that. If you have a B+E licence, that 3500kg limit doesn't apply anyway Edited April 17, 2014 by Lutz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderDave Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) You are correct, but the manufacturer can submit a whole range of weights for type approval of the same caravan. My own came with the ex-works option of 1600kg, 1700kg and 1800kg. In the UK, type approval for new models started in October 2012. They wriggled out of type approval until Oct this year claiming the "special purpose Trailer " dispensation but that stops in Oct . The special purpose trailer loop hole was based on things like boat trailers that have to be adjusted to suit different shape boats so they were allowed 2 extra years . http://www. bailey-caravans. co. uk/information-centre/latest-news/newsitem. php?recordid=271 Dave Well I'm lost. Anyway just got off the phone to VOSA again and spoke to a Marcus Bristow and reassured me that it is perfectly legal to lower the weight myself as long as I don't exceed that weight on any trailer under 3500kg. He gave me his name and a reference number. I am happy for now. Hope you all have a good Easter. Thanks for your help Correct you can legally change it yourself . google down plating a trailer or Towing Clinic which is ROG a member on here and there is plenty of information . Edited April 17, 2014 by CommanderDave Quote Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) They wriggled out of type approval until Oct this year claiming the "special purpose Trailer " dispensation but that stops in Oct . The special purpose trailer loop hole was based on things like boat trailers that have to be adjusted to suit different shape boats so they were allowed 2 extra years . http://www. bailey-caravans. co. uk/information-centre/latest-news/newsitem. php?recordid=271 Dave The October 2012 implementation date for new models applied to special purpose trailers, like caravans. For others it was already in 2011. Edited April 17, 2014 by Lutz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderDave Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Framwork Directive (type approval directive), 2007/46/EC, recognises a category of vehicles that might be considered as Special Purpose Vehicles (SPV). All of the Type Approval authorities within Europe collectively recognise caravans as SPV but a situation had arisen in the UK where boat trailers have been recognised as SPV also, provided that they are used for launching and recovery. This view was not shared by our European partners. http://www. ntta. co. uk/news/news_details. aspx?NewsID=29 Dave Quote Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) Have a look at the following regarding type approval timing of special purpose trailers: http://www. dft. gov. uk/vca/vehicletype/trailers. asp Edited April 17, 2014 by Lutz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markriggall25 Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 Hi Lutz. I don't have b +e yet I am doing it in may. My car has a gross weight of 2180 and my caravan has a mtplm of 1321 so total gross weights are 3501. That is why I need to re plate my van to loose the 1kg. Marcus at VOSA has told me this is perfectly legal so that is what I will do. We never mentioned actual weight as this would be considerably lower. The car will have me my wife 2 small children and half a boot full. The caravan has a payload of 208kg after re plating of which our actual weight of caravan luggage is closer to 100kg. So in reality our total actual weight will be closer to 3000kg. Marcus never mentioned actual weights just gross weights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Towtug Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) You could consider fitting your own VIN and TIN plate and taking the van for an IVA. As there isn't a legal requirement for registering caravans in the UK this would be the normal procedure for a vehicle that has been modified in such a way that it changed the existing approval Edited April 17, 2014 by Towtug Quote If all else fails, follow the instructions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Towtug Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) Manufacturers have to submit trailers/caravans at different weights to own the type approval to change the weight now . This is why some manufacturers have stopped offering re-plating . They have to have the approval number and change the plate and then supply a CoC for the new plate. It might make them now supply caravans at the higher weight without the extra money they charge for the increase payload . Type approval on caravans starts in October and by then all caravans have to be type approved Dave All of the manufacturers I have dealt with approve at a range of masses sometimes in 25kg steps this way a trailer can be matched to a tow car or a drivers license. Only existing design caravans are exempted from compliance until 29th Oct this year. New designs have needed approval since 2010 and most caravan manufacturers have done this. There are some manufacturers who due to volume still IVA and I am aware of a couple who don't appear to do either. If a vehicle is type approved and then registered on the basis of its Certificate of conformity any changes made to it after registration need to conform to the C and U regs. If required you can take it for an IVA to get the official paperwork but it's not mandatory (yet) As caravans aren't subject to registration or testing its difficult to see how any changes to them after they have left the factory could be monitored Edited April 17, 2014 by Towtug Quote If all else fails, follow the instructions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Towtug Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 I am surprised at a government agency suggesting something like that. I am sure that whoever told you was not aware of the implications. I am not! Unfortunately these days I can get conflicting advice from DVSA on the same day. I tend now to deal directly with VCA/DfT or the appropriate European authority. There information is usually alot more consistent. Quote If all else fails, follow the instructions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderDave Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 (edited) Gov. UK Perfectly legal in what they said . Down-plating If a vehicle is unlikely to be used at its potential maximum weight, it may be ‘down-plated’. This means that a lower weight is shown on the plate or sticker attached to the vehicle. https://www. gov. uk/vehicle-weights-explained Dave Edited April 18, 2014 by CommanderDave Quote Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 I don't think anyone was questioning that, Dave, the issue was who is allowed to downplate. Certainly, if the vehicle is subject to type approval it is only the manufacturer or through the IVA scheme. Whether the owner may downplate himself if type approval is not affected, is not quite clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderDave Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 I don't think anyone was questioning that, Dave, the issue was who is allowed to downplate. Certainly, if the vehicle is subject to type approval it is only the manufacturer or through the IVA scheme. Whether the owner may downplate himself if type approval is not affected, is not quite clear. No one can change a type approval unless they go down the type approval route and submit the vehicle for testing at the different weight but as the caravan was 2004 and not type approved it is legal. Ifor Williams was asked the same in a email and they quoted the same they can not alter any weights themselves without going through approval. Dave Quote Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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