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Wrong Max Towing Weight On Vehicle Reg Document?


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#21 CommanderDave

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 10:58 AM

Interestingly, my car's manual states "The permissible trailer loads are vehicle and engine-dependent maximum values which must not be exceeded. The actual trailer load is the difference between the actual gross weight of the trailer and the actual coupling socket load with the trailer coupled."

 

So, if I have a nose weight of 75Kg and my log book is incorrect and I'm actually allowed 1200Kg max towing weight (which has been given above from the downloaded information) then my 1273Kg MPTLM minus the 75Kg nose weight would give an actual trailer load of 1198Kg. Does this mean I'd be OK? 

 

Incidentally, I've been looking on a particular Vauxhall dealer's website which does quote towing weights in the tech spec (Aston Vauxhall in Melton Mowbray) and they give 1200Kg for my 2.0CDTi Eco S/S. The only ones that are as low as 1150Kg are the 1.8 16V petrol versions. Interestingly 1.4 Turbo petrol models come in at 1300Kg, as does the non-eco version of my 2.0CDTi 130BHP and the 165BHP CDTi has 1450Kg max towing weight.

 

The problem seems to be these ecoflex engines. The power of the 1.4Turbo petrol seems to stack up with some of the comments on the Petrol or Diesel thread that is also running at the moment.

 

Beware Ecoflex type engines!

 

 

This why I posted in your other posting about towbars to check the towing weight as the Zafira shares alot of its components with the Corsa ,Mavira ,Astra ranges and have always been known with low towing figures .

 

My nephew had a 2008 1.6 petrol and it only had a 1050kg tow limit but he has now changed it to a 2010 1.9 diesel auto and that has given him a 1400kg tow limit . His caravan is a 850kg MTPLM .

 

Dave



#22 clairendave

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:41 AM

 
Yes it was introduced a few years ago on new V5s. I know 2010 vehicles i have seen their V5 has towing limit .
 
While towing a trailer over the  towing limit is not not illegal only MTW but I should think it could become a insurance issue in the event of a accident and I would of thought it would take some explaining if stopped in Europe and they ask to see your V5 and towing a caravan plated over the vehicles towing limit as they are more strict than our VOSA on weights.
 
 
Dave


Our 2006 (56) has the weights listed on the V5

#23 CommanderDave

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:42 PM

Our 2006 (56) has the weights listed on the V5




Was the towing limit there in 2006 or has it been changed on a new V5 at change of ownership as it can't say I have noticed it until the last couple of years and wonder if its being slowly introduced .

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave, 08 April 2013 - 12:44 PM.


#24 clairendave

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:48 PM

Ahh good point Dave, we have changed the plate so the V5 is newish. Will have to see if we still have the old one.

#25 CommanderDave

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 01:16 PM

This could plug the loophole of towing limit weights as there has always never been a declaration of a towing limit officially only the allowance as part of the Max Train weight .

 

I would of thought this could stand up in court as a official declartion in evidence if exceeded  ?

 

 

Dave



#26 clairendave

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 02:44 PM

Dave, we only have one new style V5 now, so i cannot comment on it containing the details on any of the older ones we had.
What i have noticed is it also lists the exhaust db at set rpm etc, lists factory emmissions as well as the weights. I seem to recall having a conversation with someone that in future modifying cars will become more difficult. As yourself I suspect from your above comment that now weights and other things are listed, they may cause issues if they are exceeded by a set percentage.
Suppose time will tell.

#27 angus

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:00 PM

This could plug the loophole of towing limit weights as there has always never been a declaration of a towing limit officially only the allowance as part of the Max Train weight .

 

I would of thought this could stand up in court as a official declartion in evidence if exceeded  ?

 

 

Dave

 

 

Not quite so.

 

The `manufacturers` towing limit is stated upon the type approval certificate, exceeding this figure would be just as illegal as using a non type-approved vehicle (such as a Ford Ka) for towing.

 

If the vehicle has a towing limit it is on the TA certificate, and is an absolute value, like the other values such as maximum permissible vehicle weights and gross train weights. You can`t pick and choose which bits apply.



#28 CommanderDave

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:12 PM

There are only 3 declarations a manufacturer has to make for towing type approval Maximum Trainweight ,gross Vehicle weight , and the load weight (noseweight) .

 

Never has a declaration been given for a towing limit only a towing allowance from the the Gross vehicle weight to the Maximum train weight . These weights are the only plated weights that can be used as evidence for a prosecution against a weighbridge ticket .

 

If the regulations are changed and the V5 can be used in a court of law this could change the way people adjust the towing limit and MTW . I knew they were introducing towing limits on new vehicles V5s as mine has for my new vehicles but if it is being introduced over night and being back dated it could see a change soon .

 

Dave


Edited by CommanderDave, 08 April 2013 - 03:18 PM.


#29 Surf01

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:42 PM

Not quite so.

 

The `manufacturers` towing limit is stated upon the type approval certificate, exceeding this figure would be just as illegal as using a non type-approved vehicle (such as a Ford Ka) for towing.

 

If the vehicle has a towing limit it is on the TA certificate, and is an absolute value, like the other values such as maximum permissible vehicle weights and gross train weights. You can`t pick and choose which bits apply.

If a car's maximum braked towing limit is 1700kg and you exceed this, it is not illegal, however if you exceed the maximum gross train weight, then it is illegal in law.

With some cars like Vauxhall, the towing weight relates to the MIRO of the vehicle.  If you then add passengers and baggage even though within the maximum gross weight of the vehicle, the extra weight needs to be deducted from the maximum braked towing weight.

This is stated in the every Vauxhall brochure!


Edited by Surf01, 08 April 2013 - 03:46 PM.


#30 angus

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:38 PM

  I don`t have access to a Vauxhall brochure.

 

I do have access to EU Commission Regulation No 1230/2012 of 12th December 2012.

 

This seems to contradict the Vauxhall brochure:-

 

 

"HAS ADOPTED THIS REGULATION:
Article 1
Subject matter and scope
1. This Regulation lays down the requirements for the EC 
type-approval of motor vehicles and their trailers with regard to 
their masses and dimensions.
2. This Regulation applies to incomplete, complete and 
completed vehicles of categories M, N and O."
 
Category "M" being passenger cars.
 
It then goes on to state:-
 
Definitions
For the purposes of this Regulation, the following definitions 
shall apply in addition to the definitions set out in Directive 
2007/46/EC and Regulation (EC) No 661/2009:
(1) ‘vehicle type’ means a set of vehicles as defined in Part B of 
Annex II to Directive 2007/46/EC;
(2) ‘standard equipment’ means the basic configuration of a 
vehicle which is equipped with all the features that are 
required under the regulatory acts referred to in Annex 
IV and Annex XI to Directive 2007/46/EC, including all 
features that are fitted without giving rise to any further 
specifications on configuration or equipment level;
(3) ‘optional equipment’ means all the features not included in 
the standard equipment which are fitted to a vehicle under 
the responsibility of the manufacturer that can be ordered 
by the customer;
(4) ‘mass in running order’ means
(a) in the case of a motor vehicle:
the mass of the vehicle, with its fuel tank(s) filled to at 
least 90 % of its or their capacity/ies, including the 
mass of the driver, of the fuel and liquids, fitted with 
the standard equipment in accordance with the manu­
facturer’s specifications and, when they are fitted, the 
mass of the bodywork, the cabin, the coupling and the 
spare wheel(s) as well as the tools;
( B) in the case of a trailer:
the mass of the vehicle including the fuel and liquids, 
fitted with the standard equipment in accordance with 
the manufacturer’s specifications, and, when they are 
fitted, the mass of the bodywork, additional coup­
ling(s), the spare wheel(s) and the tools;
(5) ‘mass of the optional equipment’ means the mass of the 
equipment which may be fitted to the vehicle in addition 
to the standard equipment, in accordance with the manu­
facturer’s specifications;
(6) ‘actual mass of the vehicle’ means the mass in running 
order plus the mass of the optional equipment fitted to 
an individual vehicle;
(7) ‘technically permissible maximum laden mass’ (M) means 
the maximum mass allocated to a vehicle on the basis of 
its construction features and its design performances; the 
technically permissible laden mass of a trailer or of a semi- 
trailer includes the static mass transferred to the towing 
vehicle when coupled;
(8) ‘technically permissible maximum laden mass of the 
combination’ (MC) means the maximum mass allocated 
to the combination of a motor vehicle and one or more 
trailers on the basis of its construction features and its 
design performances or the maximum mass allocated to 
the combination of a tractor unit and a semi-trailer;
(9) ‘technically permissible maximum towable mass’ ™ 
means the maximum mass of one or more trailers that 
may be towed by a towing vehicle which corresponds to 
the total load transmitted to the ground by the wheels of 
an axle or a group of axles on any trailer coupled to the 
towing vehicle;
 
 
 
My interpretation of that is as "technically permissible maximum towable mass"  is therefore required required by law to be provided in order to obtain  a Type approval certificate, exceeding it would void your TA approval, hence towing would be illegal. 
 
Using your argument, if the maximum towing weight has no standing in law, then presumably you would also use the same argument to tow using a non TA approved vehicle as it doesn`t count?
 
EDIT- the smiley wasn`t put in by me, in copying the text the system has interpreted the `B` as a smiley!

Edited by angus, 08 April 2013 - 04:41 PM.


#31 Surf01

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:54 PM

How would any police officer or VOSA know that you are exceeding the maximum braked towing weight of the vehicle if you are within the maximum train weight as that weight is not displayed anywhere on the VIN plate?

I am not sure why you think it contradicts the Vauxhall brochure as that brochure is saying once to exceed the MIRO the difference needs to be subtracted from the maximum gross towing weight.  For example if you have a Vauxhall Insignia 2.0CRd auto towing a 1700kg a caravan then it si within its maximum braked towing weight.  However if wife and kids get into the vehicle plus their baggage adding an additional 200kg to the MIRO, then that car can only tow at 1500kg maximum according to their brochure.



#32 raytup

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:57 PM

November 2012 we purchased a brand new Kia , on checking the " log book " we found that the towing limit was missing from the paper work  , I contacted the DVLA and enquired as to why this information was missing . I was told that they only publish information that is supplied by the car manufacture , my conclusion was that if a motor car had many variations of the same model mistakes would be  made ,  further adding to confusion , of all the cars i have had Skoda is the one that gives all the information you will need



#33 CommanderDave

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:06 PM

November 2012 we purchased a brand new Kia , on checking the " log book " we found that the towing limit was missing from the paper work  , I contacted the DVLA and enquired as to why this information was missing . I was told that they only publish information that is supplied by the car manufacture , my conclusion was that if a motor car had many variations of the same model mistakes would be  made ,  further adding to confusion , of all the cars i have had Skoda is the one that gives all the information you will need

 

This is as Surf says police/VOSA use only the VIN plate as Handbooks and paperwork can vary with different models .

 

 

Dave



#34 Buzz123

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:05 PM

When the police,then about a year or two later VOSA wanted a chat! to get my weights they used the VIN plate gross car weight minus gross train weight to get towing weight. they weighed each axle, checked plates on car then trailer all was good and we parted company. So this was the way I work it out but I may be wrong.



#35 Zeetagsd

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:08 PM

Further to the towing weight issue. I specifically asked the salesman could the auto C5 estate tow my caravan 1300 kg. He replied yes the book says up to 1500 kg. So had test drive without van. Car ok bought it. when Log book turned up no tow weight shown. But on closer reading of owners had book it stated max tow limit of 1000 kgs. it was auto. went back to dealer Tupton Autocars, saying not fit for purpose, reply along lines you picked car get lost. Went to small claims court and Judge ruled against me as in hand book it said anything over 1000 kgs. should be taken from trailer and carried in the car as the combined weights did not exceed the GTW. the unladen weight of the van was 1024 Kgs  Would this ruling set a precedent for anyone nicked on the weight issue? The court was Boston Lincs.    


Edited by Zeetagsd, 08 April 2013 - 08:11 PM.


#36 Caravanarfa

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:52 PM

So it looks as though, as far as police/VOSA are concerned my towing weight would be 1225Kg i.e. the difference between the plated GVW and the GTW. This leaves me 48Kg too heavy on my MPTLM which is 1273Kg. I could argue that my vehicle manual states that the actual trailer weight is the MPTLM minus my 75Kg noseweight but I don't think that would wash. Of course, if I ran the caravan light then I might still be able to keep within the law but I might need to be weighed on a towbridge to make sure I'm not exceeding the GVW and the GTW to prove it. Is this an accurate interpretation of the law?

 

However, I then have the problem of the published manufacturer's recommended max trailer weight which is, I think, 1200Kg but might be 1150Kg as stated on my V5 (I'm still waiting on an email from Vauxhall.) Towing above this (or >75Kg noseweight more than this if the manual information about 'actual trailer weight' being less is correct) could invalidate my insurance and/or warranty.

 

The problem here is the ecoflex engine. This article from the camping and caravanning club explains it:

https://docs.google....L3LtDi6UBAaummQ

 

Unfortunately, I didn't run through desired towing weights with the dealer when we bought the car so I have no comeback. However, there is a positive side to this. We needed this car to replace our 1.8 Vectra which would accomodate three growing boys and we like the fuel economy the Zafira Tourer ecoflex offers. For the moment, our store and tow site is superb with its golf, fishing, restaurant, playground and football pitch so I can live without towing for a bit longer; especially as we all still like to fly away for a hotel holiday. Finally our second car is coming up for a replacement in the next year so I think what I'll do is replace that with something less economical to run but more of a tower. It would only do a three or four thousand miles a year plus any towing duties so I think I could live with less economy.

 

The ironic thing is that the Vectra 1.8 we sold would have pulled this Orion. I've just checked and its listed max towing weight is 1300Kg. Instead of my current Zafira tourer which gives a 74% match we'd have only had a 94% match and a poor, even dangerous, towing performance but the Vectra would have been fully legal and not questioned by police/insurance/VOSA/manufacturer in any way.


Edited by Caravanarfa, 08 April 2013 - 11:54 PM.


#37 AlanNancy

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:58 AM

I do find the permissible towing weight a little confusing. I put into Google ‘Towing Weights for Citroen C5 Diesel Auto’. The company carleasingmadesimple.com produces a list which shows towing weights of between 1290kg – 1670kg for the Tourer but I can’t see the difference between them!

Alan

 

 

Further to the towing weight issue. I specifically asked the salesman could the auto C5 estate tow my caravan 1300 kg. He replied yes the book says up to 1500 kg. So had test drive without van. Car ok bought it. when Log book turned up no tow weight shown. But on closer reading of owners had book it stated max tow limit of 1000 kgs. it was auto. went back to dealer Tupton Autocars, saying not fit for purpose, reply along lines you picked car get lost. Went to small claims court and Judge ruled against me as in hand book it said anything over 1000 kgs. should be taken from trailer and carried in the car as the combined weights did not exceed the GTW. the unladen weight of the van was 1024 Kgs  Would this ruling set a precedent for anyone nicked on the weight issue? The court was Boston Lincs.    

 

Take a look at http://carleasingmad...g-weight-limit/ which C5 Diesel Auto Estate do you have Zeetagsd? How can Mr Citroen have so many towing weights for the same car?

Alan



#38 JTQ

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:59 AM

I feel you will be alright re VOSA and the police in that they will only run the unit over a weigh bridge or scales to look at the actual axle weights; so the noseweight contribution comes off the caravans axle but is on the cars axles. I have not been weighed but have been told that is what happens in the UK and on the continent saw they were using run over scales.

You would be in difficulties with the vehicle warranty in failures attributable to towing but in reality only if they knew you were marginally over weight

#39 Surf01

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:41 AM

BTW it must be remembered that in most cases you will only be stopped if the outfit looks to be iffy.  Generally if it looks a good match and car is not struggling etc chances of being stopped are remote.  However don't take the chance on not being stopped.



Further to the towing weight issue. I specifically asked the salesman could the auto C5 estate tow my caravan 1300 kg. He replied yes the book says up to 1500 kg. So had test drive without van. Car ok bought it. when Log book turned up no tow weight shown. But on closer reading of owners had book it stated max tow limit of 1000 kgs. it was auto. went back to dealer Tupton Autocars, saying not fit for purpose, reply along lines you picked car get lost. Went to small claims court and Judge ruled against me as in hand book it said anything over 1000 kgs. should be taken from trailer and carried in the car as the combined weights did not exceed the GTW. the unladen weight of the van was 1024 Kgs  Would this ruling set a precedent for anyone nicked on the weight issue? The court was Boston Lincs.    

Nope as another magistrate may have agreed with you as goods were not fit for purpose.  I think only an Appeal court can set a precedent.



#40 R0G

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:10 AM

So it looks as though, as far as police/VOSA are concerned my towing weight would be 1225Kg i.e. the difference between the plated GVW and the GTW. This leaves me 48Kg too heavy on my MPTLM which is 1273Kg.

The towing capacity and the MPTLM do not have to be the same

 

The GTW is the actual weight of both vehicle and trailer when weighed together

 

If you were to load the caravan to an actual weight which did not exceed the towing capacity which would be lower than its MPTLM (in your case) and the vehicle actual weight does not exceed the GVW then you are not going to have any issues

 

If the combination is stable and safe then off you go






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