Towing Over 85%

[StevenLisa]

You should check your vehicles towing capacity and ensure you do not exceed that. The 85% guide is misguiding.

[beejay]

 

The biggest problem with both these designs is reversing. .. having had a go at it, and normally I don't consider myself poor at reversing, trying to reverse with a "dolly" system is a skill all of its own, but it can be done.

 

 

Which made all the more bizarre the fact that "grand father rights" in the early 70's gave HGV II and HGV III drivers a C+E entitlement but restricted to drawbar trailers on which most, if not all, those drivers had no experience.

[Rickardo]

You should check your vehicles towing capacity and ensure you do not exceed that. The 85% guide is misguiding.

 

I've been saying this all along

[poolebob]

You should check your vehicles towing capacity and ensure you do not exceed that. The 85% guide is misguiding.

 

Sorry to contradict but your comment is also misguiding.

 

I accept that the 85% is a guideline but the universal view is that for caravans you should never exceed either the vehicles towing capacity or 100% of the vehicles kerb weight whichever is the lower.

In another thread there is this: "The driver has been charged with dangerous driving. . in that his caravan exceeded the weight of his car by 115%"

 

. poolebob

[StevenLisa]

Sorry to contradict but your comment is also misguiding.

 

I accept that the 85% is a guideline but the universal view is that for caravans you should never exceed either the vehicles towing capacity or 100% of the vehicles kerb weight whichever is the lower.

In another thread there is this: "The driver has been charged with dangerous driving. . in that his caravan exceeded the weight of his car by 115%"

 

A. poolebob

 

You cannot be prosecuted for your trailer being heavier than the tow vehicle, you can only be -prosecuted for exceeding the tow vehicles towing limit.

 

All vehicles are different with regard to their towing ability and some can tow more than their weight both safely and legally. To give the extreme example my 8 tonne artic unit can legally tow a 36 tonne trailer.

 

In contrast some vehicles cannot legally tow 85% as it would put them over their legal train weight.

 

This is why you should at all times check the design weight of your vehicle first.

Edited July 27, 2011 by StevenLisa

[outnumbered]

You cannot be prosecuted for your trailer being heavier than the tow vehicle, you can only be -prosecuted for exceeding the tow vehicles towing limit.

 

All vehicles are different with regard to their towing ability and some can tow more than their weight both safely and legally. To give the extreme example my 8 tonne artic unit can legally tow a 36 tonne trailer.

 

In contrast some vehicles cannot legally tow 85% as it would put them over their legal train weight.

 

This is why you should at all times check the design weight of your vehicle first.

 

would that be a 4x2 or 6x2

[StevenLisa]

6x2, a 4x2 would be limited to a 30 tonne trailer

[Trevor Marron]

6x2, a 4x2 would be limited to a 30 tonne trailer

 

Or less depending on the taxation class!

[StevenLisa]

Would depend on its plated weight which dictates its taxation class.

 

Be it a truck or a car the manufacturers design weights are the only weights used for law enforcment and the only weights i would consider as fit for purpose. Any % weight figures have relevance for outfit matching. If a vehicle 1. 5 tonne vehicle is only designed to tow a 1 tonne trailer, that is all it is legally permited to tow.

[poolebob]

You cannot be prosecuted for your trailer being heavier than the tow vehicle, you can only be -prosecuted for exceeding the tow vehicles towing limit.

 

All vehicles are different with regard to their towing ability and some can tow more than their weight both safely and legally. To give the extreme example my 8 tonne artic unit can legally tow a 36 tonne trailer.

 

In contrast some vehicles cannot legally tow 85% as it would put them over their legal train weight.

 

This is why you should at all times check the design weight of your vehicle first.

 

I agree that to exceed either the vehicles towing weight or the max train weight is an absolute offence and that below that you will not be prosecuted for that alone. However as the example I quoted shows, that does not stop you being prosecuted for dangerous driving even below that figure.

 

As this is a caravan forum, I made it clear that I am only talking about caravans and not either other types of trailer or artics which are totally different.

 

I stand by what I said earlier. Universal advice is that for caravans you should never exceed 100% of the cars kerbweight. If you do, you are asking for trouble.

 

Perhaps there is an officer of the law lurking here somewhere who could comment from their perspective.

poolebob

[Leeh]

Sorry to be thick I have a ex police Volvo s60 t5 think the curb weight is 1450kg and my van is 800kg what % is that is the car suitable to tow that weight ??

 

Newbie be gentle ;-/

[Nomorework]

Sorry to be thick I have a ex police Volvo s60 t5 think the curb weight is 1450kg and my van is 800kg what % is that is the car suitable to tow that weight ??

 

Newbie be gentle ;-/

 

800/1450*100 = 55%= fine

Edited July 27, 2011 by whatever

[Lunarcamper]

The weight you need to look at is the max laden weight of the van. Either on the plate as MAM or MTPLM. And the kerbweight or mass in service of your car given on your v5.

 

Divide this by the kerb weight and then multiply by 100 to give the percentage ratio. Assuming you have quoted the mtplm or mam then your ratio is 55%

 

800/1450 x 100 = 55. 1%

 

The legality of the outfit is defined by the gross train weight and the max tow weight of the car, so long as you don't exceed these you will stay legal. As a newbie it is recommended you don't exceed 85% as a ratio of weights however this is not law. I don't think you should have a problem towing a little van with a low weight with the Volvo.

[Leeh]

Thanks for both replys will have to double check on both plates for correct weight as that's what the people who I brought the van off told me it's a 4 berth esprit caprise.

[StevenLisa]

However as the example I quoted shows, that does not stop you being prosecuted for dangerous driving even below that figure.

 

As this is a caravan forum, I made it clear that I am only talking about caravans and not either other types of trailer or artics which are totally different.

 

I stand by what I said earlier. Universal advice is that for caravans you should never exceed 100% of the cars kerbweight. If you do, you are asking for trouble.

 

Perhaps there is an officer of the law lurking here somewhere who could comment from their perspective.

poolebob

 

As long as you stay under your max train weight you cannot be prosecuted. The law recognises a caravan as a trailer, there is no law that states your trailer must weigh less than the weight of the tow vehicle.

 

The law is clear that you must not exceed the tow vehicles train weight. If your vehicle does not have a train weight, the law states you should not tow with it.

[AWanderingLancastrian]

I agree that to exceed either the vehicles towing weight or the max train weight is an absolute offence and that below that you will not be prosecuted for that alone. However as the example I quoted shows, that does not stop you being prosecuted for dangerous driving even below that figure.

 

As this is a caravan forum, I made it clear that I am only talking about caravans and not either other types of trailer or artics which are totally different.

 

I stand by what I said earlier. Universal advice is that for caravans you should never exceed 100% of the cars kerbweight. If you do, you are asking for trouble.

 

Perhaps there is an officer of the law lurking here somewhere who could comment from their perspective.

poolebob

 

 

Hi poolbob. There are very few, if not only one or two that actually know that there is indeed a serving officer that is a forum member.

The nice thing about it is that whenever he/she posts a comment the silly,stupid,ignorant and dangerously uneducated caravanner's and possibly an occasional motor-homer just slinks away. This is brought about by a total deflation of their comments,it might be a good idea if a total deflation of there ability to move their outfits could be arrange on a temporary basis,this might give them time to reflect upon their complete misgivings from the perspective of lack of understanding of certain criteria.

Not knowing and learning is one thing,thinking you know it all and in fact know very little if anything is a completely different ball-game.

[AWanderingLancastrian]

Sorry to be thick I have a ex police Volvo s60 t5 think the curb weight is 1450kg and my van is 800kg what % is that is the car suitable to tow that weight ??

 

Newbie be gentle ;-/

 

 

Hi Leeh. In respect of "I think the kerb-weight is 1450kg " thinking without a belt & braces check-up could be dangerous.

According to Parkers the S60 T5 manual has a weight of 1427kgs. NOTICE MY REFERENCE, weight NOT kerb-weight.

They have my 1997 V70 T5 CD Auto at 1435kgs. The truth of the matter is that the T5 is 1638kgs.

They do not indicate how the weight figure is derived nor any reference to directives.

The only way to know your kerb-weight is to put your car on a weigh-bridge and better still a Dynamic Axle Weigh-bridge.

PS. You don't say whether your van is MiRO 800kgs or MTPLM 800kgs which is it?.

Edited July 28, 2011 by TheTravellingRooster

[StevenLisa]

Hi poolbob. There are very few, if not only one or two that actually know that there is indeed a serving officer that is a forum member.

The nice thing about it is that whenever he/she posts a comment the silly,stupid,ignorant and dangerously uneducated caravanner's and possibly an occasional motor-homer just slinks away. This is brought about by a total deflation of their comments,it might be a good idea if a total deflation of there ability to move their outfits could be arrange on a temporary basis,this might give them time to reflect upon their complete misgivings from the perspective of lack of understanding of certain criteria.

Not knowing and learning is one thing,thinking you know it all and in fact know very little if anything is a completely different ball-game.

 

Would welcome a police officer into any thread, only if they know what they are talking about. Just because someone puts on a uniform does not mean they are have all the right answers, will depend on their training, even then, their legal actions are reviewed by cps to ensure they would stand up in court.

 

If you do not understand the law you would spend your time better on dvla website than a forum.

 

The law is clear with trailer weights, you are not permitted to exceed the tow vehicles design train weight. It is clearly stated on your vehicle. The law does not use percentages in any form for towing weight enforcment.

[AWanderingLancastrian]

Would welcome a police officer into any thread, only if they know what they are talking about. Just because someone puts on a uniform does not mean they are have all the right answers, will depend on their training, even then, their legal actions are reviewed by cps to ensure they would stand up in court.

 

If you do not understand the law you would spend your time better on dvla website than a forum.

 

The law is clear with trailer weights, you are not permitted to exceed the tow vehicles design train weight. It is clearly stated on your vehicle. The law does not use percentages in any form for towing weight enforcment.

 

 

Hi S&L. The police officer to which I refer is a Traffic Officer, and serving,unless of course has recently become a "Cuts Victim".

You obviously have not had to make head nor tail of some of the "info" on the DVLA site of late. The information that I was trying to digest was contradictory & rather confusing to say the very least. The issue was covered in some length on this forum with no real resolve/solution. I myself got involved in a multi E'mail conversation with a particular individual at DVLA. I can only describe it as attempting to communicate with an Alien that came with a Sub-Level of understanding of automotive data. I was rather unwell at the time and subsequently ended up having surgery,it ground to an abrupt halt. I might just resurrect the item that was the subject of my queries.

Indeed I am myself fully aware of the cans & can-nots of the caravanning world. I know the differences between legislative & advisory/guidelines when it comes to towing.

I have in fact be castigated on this & other caravan related forums for my insistance on knowing & promoting the understanding of the need for an accurate MiRO and kerb-weights as a basis from which to progress. Also in the use of weigh-bridges and in particular The Dynamic Axle Weigh-bridge,as used by VOSA.

[Rickardo]

I myself got involved in a multi E'mail conversation with a particular individual at DVLA. I can only describe it as attempting to communicate with an Alien that came with a Sub-Level of understanding of automotive data. I was rather unwell at the time and subsequently ended up having surgery,it ground to an abrupt halt. I might just resurrect the item that was the subject of my queries.

 

 

No wonder seeming as DVLA don't deal with vehicle weights

[AWanderingLancastrian]

No wonder seeming as DVLA don't deal with vehicle weights

 

 

Hi Rickardo. Yes, but in my E'mails I ended up using relevant weights to illustrate the elements of confusion that was coming about.

[Bill Lord]

The legality of the outfit is defined by the gross train weight and the max tow weight of the car,

 

The legality of the outfit is defined by the class of licence and the gross train weight. The manufacturers max tow weight has no place at all in criminal law, the only place you might find difficulty with is if you have a warranty claim against the dealer who sold you the car. I have spent a considerable time searching for any legistlation which makes any mention of the manufacturers maximum towing weight and an not find any, nor can any of the government bodies who have a reponsibility for it, I have asked them. The nearest you will come is the . gov. uk site which mentions maximum towing weight but then says that it can be found on the cars vin plate, the only figures allowed on the vin plate are maximum train weight, maximum vehicle weight and the relevant maximum axle weights. In fact I would be very happy if someone could point me in the direction of such legistlation since that would clear the air completely, however having done an exhaustive search I am happy that the description above is completely corrct.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Bill Lord

[beejay]

I might just resurrect the item that was the subject of my queries.

 

No. ...pleeeeeease no!

 

I have in fact be castigated on this & other caravan related forums for my insistance on knowing & promoting the understanding of the need for an accurate MiRO and kerb-weights as a basis from which to progress.

 

An accurate MIRO is unnecessary. Weighing the loaded caravan and keeping within the MPTLM is all that is legally required.

 

For licence purposes, when towing on a B entitlement, unladen weight is - according to DVLA

The unladen weight of any vehicle is the vehicles own weight when not carrying any goods or burden. This is:

 

• inclusive of the body and all parts which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road
• exclusive of fuel and, in the case of an electrically powered vehicle, the batteries

Kerbweight is usually accepted as unladen weight + full fuel tank + 75 kg for driver + 7 kg for tools.

 

The only legal definition of weight is Mass in Service on the V5. ..... if it is shown. As yet it is not an obligatory requirement to be shown for M1 category vehicles (cars)..

 

How confirming unladen weight in a court case involving driving licence entitlement is unclear and would appear to be for the court to decide.

 

DVLA is only involved with weight in respect of taxation classes. VOSA carries out inspection and testing of vehicles under the auspices of the Department of Transport.

 

[AWanderingLancastrian]

No. ...pleeeeeease no!

 

 

 

An accurate MIRO is unnecessary. Weighing the loaded caravan and keeping within the MPTLM is all that is legally required.

 

For licence purposes, when towing on a B entitlement, unladen weight is - according to DVLA

The unladen weight of any vehicle is the vehicles own weight when not carrying any goods or burden. This is:

 

• inclusive of the body and all parts which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road
• exclusive of fuel and, in the case of an electrically powered vehicle, the batteries

Kerbweight is usually accepted as unladen weight + full fuel tank + 75 kg for driver + 7 kg for tools.

 

The only legal definition of weight is Mass in Service on the V5. ..... if it is shown. As yet it is not an obligatory requirement to be shown for M1 category vehicles (cars)..

 

How confirming unladen weight in a court case involving driving licence entitlement is unclear and would appear to be for the court to decide.

 

DVLA is only involved with weight in respect of taxation classes. VOSA carries out inspection and testing of vehicles under the auspices of the Department of Transport.

 

 

Hi beejay. How can you possibly advocate that a figure for the MiRO is unnecessary ?, In order to achieve the MTPLM one has to know a starting point otherwise everything including the kitchen sink goes in,the caravan gets under-way and gets stopped and weighed & OH S**T am I really that much over my MTPLM officer. How do you know when the MTPLM is reached if the true MiRO has not been established?. The world is full of Guestimating Idiots without you condoning the practice and encouraging increased membership to the Idiots United Club.

Your interpretation of kerb-weight is COBBLERS to say the very least. It is NOT a full tank. It is NOT a 75kgs driver and the vehicle is as it left the manufacturer with all oils & fluids to function safely & correctly. Furthermore USUALLY does not come into it. It is a documented definition albeit there are a number of conflicting interpretations. Look into Practical Caravan Magazine for the currently excepted one here in the UK.

[StevenLisa]

The legality of the outfit is defined by the class of licence and the gross train weight. The manufacturers max tow weight has no place at all in criminal law, the only place you might find difficulty with is if you have a warranty claim against the dealer who sold you the car. I have spent a considerable time searching for any legistlation which makes any mention of the manufacturers maximum towing weight and an not find any, nor can any of the government bodies who have a reponsibility for it, I have asked them. The nearest you will come is the . gov. uk site which mentions maximum towing weight but then says that it can be found on the cars vin plate, the only figures allowed on the vin plate are maximum train weight, maximum vehicle weight and the relevant maximum axle weights. In fact I would be very happy if someone could point me in the direction of such legistlation since that would clear the air completely, however having done an exhaustive search I am happy that the description above is completely corrct.

 

Think you are mis understand the clear legislation which is max train weight minus max car weight = max weight of trailer/caravan weight that the tow vehicle can tow.

 

Curb weights have no reference as they are only for the driver to work out how much weight they can carry within the car and trailer.

 

Axle weights are only the maximum weight the axle is designed to take, you cannot add your axle weights to your maximum train weight, they are part of it.

 

Clearly you have been speaking to the wrong officials.

 

The manufactures weights are taken in law as the vehicles limits. These are the only weights legally enforcable.

 

Really fail to understand why people add grey areas of percentages and curb weights. Vehicles train weight is absolute in law, exceed it and get stopped and you will be prosecuted. However I have been let off on 1 occasion when I was over my train weight by 65kg.

 

Unlike a transport officer who is trained in transport law, I am qaulified in transport law. I will stick to manufacturers weights of the vehicles I drive to stay legal and not a percentage figure that will be no defence in a court of law