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70+. Doh! Doh! And Double Doh!


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#1 602

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 06:45 AM

Hi,

Yesterday, I filled in my application for my "post 70" driving licence. This involved mention of arson, divorce, and murder. And the dog was scheduled for a kicking.

I regard my driving licence to be a combination of the photocard and the paper licence, with the paper bit being the actual licence, with the photocard being a convenient, portable, supporting document. Am I right? I have to renew both, but there ain't no tick-box for both, only the photocard.

Then there is my entitlement. The DVLA booklet says that if I want to continue driving vehicles over 3500kg (INCLUDING TRAILERS) I need a medical. So what does that mean? A car over 3500kg, a trailer over 3500kg, or a combination over 3500kg? I was on the point of booking an appointment for a medical.....but hung back, while I browsed through the web some more.

I now believe that my B+E licence will allow me to drive a car up to 3500kg MAM and a max of 8 seats, towing a trailer realistically limited to 3500kg MAM.

If I do not take a medical, I will lose my entitlement to drive cars with over 3500kg MAM, and mini buses with between 9 and 16 seats. C+E and D+E. I think I can live with that., its been 40 years since I drove anything that big....I passed my test (for second time) in 1959 in a Bedford RL 4x4 truck, mixing it with the trams in Blackpool.

DVLA have told me that I will retain my B+E entitlement, but I don't trust them. What are other readers experiences?

602

#2 TedNewman

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 09:33 AM

Hi there 602 - were you at Weeton? Did my trade training there in 1955 and later took the Coles crane course there - also mixing it with the trams in 1959 :lol:

I took the medical as I wanted to retain my 7.5 tons vehicle driving rights - we spent several weeks in New Zealand with a motorhome that weighed in at 4 tons so I needed that extra weight capacity to my license plus I helped out with a local charity driving their mini-bus.

If you only ever intend to drive car and caravan then the standard 70+ license is OK for you BUT make sure you remind them you want everything added to the new license that you are entitled to - for example motor cycles if you have them!

Edited by TedNewman, 30 January 2009 - 09:34 AM.


#3 RogerL

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 10:42 AM

602 - my understanding is the same as yours, a pre-1997 B only licence includes +E and C groups as inherited rights but the C is subject to a medical examination from the age of 70 but the B and +E aren't subject to a medical.

There are a great many medical conditions, listed on Directgov, which cause the loss of the C group, however earned. I've just lost mine because of Cardiomyopathy but it's no big deal as I had no plans to drive 7.5 tonners or tow 2.5m caravans - I did panic initially thinking I'd lost the +E or even the B but checking the website was actually clear on this ocassion.

I'll note Ted's advice to ensure that DVLA are "told" which groups to carry forward, not rely on them doing so automatically, when my "youngsters" licence is renewed at 70.

#4 Legsmaniac

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 10:59 AM

So what does that mean? A car over 3500kg, a trailer over 3500kg, or a combination over 3500kg?


I believe it's a combination over 3500kg. Losing the C category means the licence is basically the same as those who pass their test after January 1997 and so limited to a car and caravan with a combined weight of 3500Kg

#5 TedNewman

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 11:53 AM

I believe it's a combination over 3500kg. Losing the C category means the licence is basically the same as those who pass their test after January 1997 and so limited to a car and caravan with a combined weight of 3500Kg


I think you will find the above is not correct - you simply forfeit the over 3500 kg vehicle rights so you can (in theory) still drive a car of up to 3500 kg with a trailer of up to 3500 kg. Assumng you passed your test before 1997 which from the sounds of it 602 did :lol: AND of course all the other legal bits and pieces are observed - like car manufacturers limits etc.

#6 Frank.A

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 11:58 AM

I believe it's a combination over 3500kg. Losing the C category means the licence is basically the same as those who pass their test after January 1997 and so limited to a car and caravan with a combined weight of 3500Kg


That is how I understand it,so if the 'E' is not carried forward by right at 70,it could make many car/caravan combinations off limits. :blink:

'Motor vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg having not more than eight passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg. Combinations of towing vehicles in category B and a trailer, where the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3500kg and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle.'

Best,
Frank

Edited by Frank.A, 30 January 2009 - 12:08 PM.


#7 couiza

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 12:02 PM

**

Edited by couiza, 08 July 2009 - 02:20 PM.


#8 BrianI

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 04:46 PM

A recent topic concluded that your existing driving entitlement continued on renewal at 70.
http://www.caravanta...?sh...2; e&st=0
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#9 602

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 04:50 PM

[quote name='couiza' date='Jan 30 2009, 12:02 PM' post='226709']
Sorry Legsmaniac but you are incorrect.

The car/tow vehicle must not exceed 3500kg, therefore, the caravan should not be heavier than 3500kg but obviously any sensible person would not tow anywhere close to this.

Hi,

Most replies seem to indicate that I will keep my B+E.

My tow car since time immemorial (well, 1972) has usually been an old Land Rover. Maker's towing limit is 4000kg, but only 3500kg unless you have air brakes (or similar).

The problem of not having the +E is that you are limited by MAM. My boat trailer weighed a smidgen over 750kg, but had a MAM of 3500kg, so any one with a B licence only could not tow it, even when empty. OK, I can't see myself wanting to do that again.

But whats the MAM of a Land Rover Discovery. I would guess about 2500kg. So many people are going to be limited to quite a small trailer. My old caravan has an MAM in excess of 1000kg, so that would be a no-no without a B+E.

I intend to keep my 1960 Landy....which hasn't got, and never had an MAM (??????), and later this year, add a Delica to the fleet. Well, at my age....... Anybody know the MAM of a Delica?

And how many people are towing a trailer round without realising they are no longer licenced? Silly old ****s. :P Include me in that from time to time.

602

#10 RogerL

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 05:09 PM

Hi,

Most replies seem to indicate that I will keep my B+E.

My tow car since time immemorial (well, 1972) has usually been an old Land Rover. Maker's towing limit is 4000kg, but only 3500kg unless you have air brakes (or similar).

The problem of not having the +E is that you are limited by MAM. My boat trailer weighed a smidgen over 750kg, but had a MAM of 3500kg, so any one with a B licence only could not tow it, even when empty. OK, I can't see myself wanting to do that again.

But whats the MAM of a Land Rover Discovery. I would guess about 2500kg. So many people are going to be limited to quite a small trailer. My old caravan has an MAM in excess of 1000kg, so that would be a no-no without a B+E.

I intend to keep my 1960 Landy....which hasn't got, and never had an MAM (??????), and later this year, add a Delica to the fleet. Well, at my age....... Anybody know the MAM of a Delica?

And how many people are towing a trailer round without realising they are no longer licenced? Silly old ****s. :P Include me in that from time to time.

602

The MAM of a Discovery 3 is 3180-3230kg so any trailer is limited to 270-320kg for a B only licence holder !!

#11 Frank.A

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 09:14 PM

The MAM of a Discovery 3 is 3180-3230kg so any trailer is limited to 270-320kg for a B only licence holder !!



Hi Roger,

According to DVLA website you can pull a 750kg trailer with a vehicle up to 3500kgs on a 'B' licence, as I posted above.

http://www.direct.go...ions/DG_4022547

Best,
Frank

#12 RogerL

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 09:36 PM

Hi Roger,

According to DVLA website you can pull a 750kg trailer with a vehicle up to 3500kgs on a 'B' licence, as I posted above.

http://www.direct.go...ions/DG_4022547

Best,
Frank

Yes, a B only licence holder can tow an outfit with total MAM not exceeding 3500kg - or - a vehicle not exceeding 3500kg MAM with an unbraked trailer not exceeding 750kg MAM.

#13 BrianI

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 09:56 PM

Roger,
It does not specify that the trailer has to be unbraked. This link is better worded
http://www.direct.go...les/DG_10013073
I think that brakes are only required on trailers above 750kg and thus most small trailers are in fact unbraked.

However it does seem from reports of people over 70 that you retain full use of your licence for towing a caravan for anyone who passed their driving test before 1 Jan 1997. It does seem to limit you to a tow vehicle of 3500kg MAM, which as far as I can see covers even the largest 4x4 and there is no limit on the trailer weight for driving licensing purposes.

For anyone who passed their test after 1 Jan 1997 they are limited now to a B licence and that would remain the same after 70.

Brian

#14 jetA1

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Posted 30 January 2009 - 11:40 PM

This is licence related, though not strictly an age 70 issue, if the mods want to move this I'll understand.

The issue of photo licence renewal has just raised its head in my work place and highlighted some significant confusion.

In my work place we are 100% LGV and almost without exception we are all of that age where we are on 5 yearly medical/licence renewal. There was wide spread belief (me included) that the 5 yearly LGV renewal was always going to keep us ahead of the 10 renewal required by the photo licence. We've just found out this is wrong, the photo licence has a 10 year renewal cycle which runs independent of any other requirements of the licence.

Although our confusion arose because of the LGV element I think it is quite possible that others (none LGV) may also not be aware of the renewal requirement. On the front of the photo licence, section 4b, states the licence renewal date, at which time the licence has to be renewed and the photo updated, this is a requirement for all licence holders.

If you are cleverer that me and already know this then thats fine. However following a brief poll of a number of folks at work I found that there was wide spread misunderstanding of this requirement so I thought I would share it with you ...

#15 602

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Posted 31 January 2009 - 06:33 AM

Hi JetA1,

I agree that there is widespread misunderstanding of this/these subjects.

My wife used to be the Press Officer at DVLA. We had a real "up and downer" while I persuaded her that I had to pay for a medical, if I wanted to tow our caravan with a Delica, or most other big cars. Eventually she agreed.

Then I changed my mind, and had great difficulty persuading her that, again, I was right. As I said, the dog was hiding under the table.

This all seems to be because of lack of information, and the poorly worded information that is available. The licence application sent by DVLA, says I do NOT have to supply a new photo, but I can if I want to. It doesn't say what hapens if I don't. I've read that renewing a 70+ licence is free. Does that include changing the photo?

My wife's photo card licence needs to be changed two months before her 70th birthday. I'd best get in a stock of tranquilizers for the dog.

Oh yeah, I've just been informed that Mitsubishi do not quote a towing limit for the Delica in UK. What does that mean?

602

#16 RogerL

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Posted 31 January 2009 - 10:13 AM

Oh yeah, I've just been informed that Mitsubishi do not quote a towing limit for the Delica in UK. What does that mean?

602

The Delica was never imported officially by Mitsubishi - grey imports aren't subject to type-approval, only single vehicle approval (SVA) - so you can tow what you want. The police still have enough old powers to book you for unsafe load, etc if necessary, but it's very subjective.

I stand corrected on my earlier mistake - a B only licence does allow a 3500kg MAM vehicle towing a 750kg MAM trailer whether braked or not - this extra provision was intended to permit 750kg MAM unbraked trailers to be towed without reducing the vehicle MAM from 3500 to 2750kg - it has been worded to permit braked trailers as well, as it would be daft not to (although there's plenty of examples of daft regulations).

#17 602

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Posted 31 January 2009 - 03:50 PM

The Delica was never imported officially by Mitsubishi - grey imports aren't subject to type-approval, only single vehicle approval (SVA) - so you can tow what you want. The police still have enough old powers to book you for unsafe load, etc if necessary, but it's very subjective.

I stand corrected on my earlier mistake - a B only licence does allow a 3500kg MAM vehicle towing a 750kg MAM trailer whether braked or not - this extra provision was intended to permit 750kg MAM unbraked trailers to be towed without reducing the vehicle MAM from 3500 to 2750kg - it has been worded to permit braked trailers as well, as it would be daft not to (although there's plenty of examples of daft regulations).


Hi,

Nice to hear about the Delica. Is there anywhere in the world where they do have a declared towing limit?

I understood that the extra 750kg trailer was so that truck drivers (aka Yorkie) could tow a caravan behind his fully laden pantechnicon. Whether that was the intention, or if it was later voiced over a pint, is a different matter.

My Freedom had a MAM of a smidgen over 750kg, but there was a version that was under 750kg, so didn't need/have brakes. Maybe they just used a different number stamp?

602

#18 602

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Posted 31 January 2009 - 03:53 PM

[quote name='RogerL' date='Jan 31 2009, 10:13 AM' post='226887']
The Delica was never imported officially by Mitsubishi - grey imports aren't subject to type-approval, only single vehicle approval (SVA) - so you can tow what you want. The police still have enough old powers to book you for unsafe load, etc if necessary, but it's very subjective.


Hi again,

I understand that anybody can import any vehicle from anywhere without a SVA....provided it is more than 10 years old.

Happy (NOT) to be proved wrong.

602

#19 RogerL

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Posted 31 January 2009 - 06:15 PM


The Delica was never imported officially by Mitsubishi - grey imports aren't subject to type-approval, only single vehicle approval (SVA) - so you can tow what you want. The police still have enough old powers to book you for unsafe load, etc if necessary, but it's very subjective.

Hi again,

I understand that anybody can import any vehicle from anywhere without a SVA....provided it is more than 10 years old.

Happy (NOT) to be proved wrong.

602

I'm aware of the existence of grey import rules (but not their detail) because most of the owners on the Subaru Legacy and Outback forum I use have twin turbo import Legacys rather than the non-turbo official sales.

I was being generic in calling the process SVA, but it's a bit similar - an extended MoT which ensures it complies with UK legislation.

Look at your Delica's VIN plate - if you can determine the Maximum Authorised Mass (Gross Weight or equivalent) and a higher weight that represents the Gross Train Weight a basic towing limit can be determined from the difference between the two figures - the plate may be in Japanese which probably won't help!

#20 602

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 07:45 AM

Hi,

Sorry clicked wrong button again.

To clarify, we haven't bought a Delica yet, waiting till we sell our place in France. But I guess we could visit a local dealer (20 miles away) who seems to sell them on a regular basis, take a look at his VIN plates.

You seem to get an awful lot of car for your money with a Delica. Mazda Bongos seem to cost a lot more, but that might not be comparing like with like. Whatever, my wife refuses to travel in a car called a Bongo, can't think why.

602




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