Towing

[Sea&Sand]

Peter7740

 

Back to an aspect of your original question, I don't know your budget but a single axle caravan that might meet your needs is the Bailey GT65 Ancona (6berth-2fixed bunks and 2 additional bunk beds).

 

Nice capable and enjoyable van IMHO.

 

 

As far as the other information goes, I already have a nose bleed from all that is being 'debated'.

As already said, it is all quite simple, you have the relevant info.

 

Post number 22 (not the only one) gives relevant guidance.

[shipbroker]

See. .I told you that this forum loved your type of question!

 

geoff

[Steve05]

 

Hi Steve. Several years ago I towed an Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco with and MTPLM of 1750kgs with a 1997 Volvo V70 T5 CD Automatic.

The V70 T5 had a maximum braked towing limit of 1600kgs and the SuperSirocco had a proven MiRO of 1440kgs albeit the brochure weight was listed as 1426kgs. Hence the importance of knowing the two starting points as mentioned in para 7 of my post # 12

 

There were many clever-sods that were telling me that I could not tow the SuperSirocco and that it was illegal;including Know-all - No Nothing caravan salesmen.

 

I used to keep a hand written inventory of everything that went on or in my outfit - adjustments to the figures were made as the removable/changeable items were moved about depending upon the requirements of the trips.

 

Sorry mate, I'm with Grandad on this one, it's the maximum weights that are important, max permitted weights of car and caravan combined can't exceed the train weight, the actual weights (unless over) don't really come into it.

 

I'm sure your outfit was safe but it could put the driver in a compromising position in the event of an accident.

 

Find your tow-car's VIN plate. It will have four weights listed on it. The highest figure is the vehicle's Gross Train Weight (GTW), that is the maximum permitted PLATED weight of tow vehicle + trailer. The second highest figure is the vehicles Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW). That is the maximum permitted weight of the vehicle and its contents(this will include the tow-bar download or nose-weight) The other two figures are the maximum load for each axle. The caravan should have a plate by the door which will specify the Maximum Technically Permitted Loaded Mass (MTPLM). The MTPLM, when added to the GVW, must not exceed the GTW.

For reliable references, see:-

 

http://www. ntta. co. uk/law/law/towing-capacity

 

https://www. gov. uk/towing-with-car/weight-and-width-limits

[Black Grouse]

 

max permitted weights of car and caravan combined can't exceed the train weight, the actual weights (unless over) don't really come into it.

 

.

 

That's not correct - the extreme example being a small car towing an unladen car trailer - provided the actual weight of the car doesn't exceed its GVW - and - the actual weight of the trailer doesn't exceed it's MTPLM - and - the sum of the two actual weights doesn't exceed the GTW.

[Steve05]

That's not correct - the extreme example being a small car towing an unladen car trailer - provided the actual weight of the car doesn't exceed its GVW - and - the actual weight of the trailer doesn't exceed it's MTPLM - and - the sum of the two actual weights doesn't exceed the GTW.

 

https://www. gov. uk/government/publications/towing-a-trailer-with-a-car-or-van/towing-a-trailer-with-a-car-or-van-the-basics

 

Looks like I could be wrong , every day's a school day.

 

I realise that, through necessity, OP is juggling numbers but personally I'd still be very reluctant to tow anything with an MTPLM which would exceed the train weight. If something were to go wrong I can see some insurance companies using this as a loophole.

[Black Grouse]

 

https://www. gov. uk/government/publications/towing-a-trailer-with-a-car-or-van/towing-a-trailer-with-a-car-or-van-the-basics

 

Looks like I could be wrong , every day's a school day.

 

I realise that, through necessity, OP is juggling numbers but personally I'd still be very reluctant to tow anything with an MTPLM which would exceed the train weight. If something were to go wrong I can see some insurance companies using this as a loophole.

I take a different view, but come to a similar conclusion - I don't buy vehicles where the towing limit (GTW-GVW) is less than the kerbweight (however defined!) as I feel that good towcars are always above - nor where the caravan MTPLM is greater than the kerbweight - so for me, its not an issue.

[Lutz]

The MTPLM, when added to the GVW, must not exceed the GTW.

 

MTPLM plus GVW is not the GTW. The MTPLM includes the noseweight as does the GVW, so adding the two together would mean counting the noseweight twice.

 

 

 

Lutz. The Practical Caravan magazine of several years back did quote the EU directive 95/48/EC in relation to Kerbweight - indeed printed on the copy of a page that was covering a shortened version of the original page that I refer to it shows The Glossary and it actually states :---

 

Kerbweight.

The weight of the towing vehicle (without payload),including all fluids required for operation,90% full tank,68kg driver and 7kg luggage.

 

If you have an issue with that then feel free to consult with the magazine about their historical details.

 

The photocopied page goes back to a magazine that would have been issued circa Autumn 2008.

 

What counts is the definitive agreed final version of the EU Directive, not any possible draft that Practical Caravan may or may not have got their hands on at some later date. There are no references in 95/48/EC that it amends or replaces an older version which used the term kerbweight. It actually replaced 92/21/EEC which doesn't use the term kerbweight either. Even if anything to that effect did exist, it would have been unofficial as it was never endorsed.

Besides, 95/48/EC was already issued in 1995 before Practical Caravan published anything in 2008, so what the magazine published, God only knows where they got their information from.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Lutz

[Sea&Sand]

No help to anyone at all is this (I am not referring to the previous post, should have made that clear , that's my reason for an edit).

 

But now I am bleeding from my ears

 

I feel sorry for the OP

Edited September 9, 2017 by Sea&Sand

[AWanderingLancastrian]

Their ability is, or should be in selling, not technical support.

 

Hi B G. Yes but in this day and age a part of their ability to sell and understand what they are selling is a Duty of Care.

That will not unnaturally would require elements of technical knowledge and in particular a knowledge of the relevant weights and the matching of tow-car/caravans and not just the ability to read date sites that most of us by now know full well are filled with absolute cobblers.

 

There is one particular site that had/held absolute fantasy when it came to my 1997 Volvo T5 CD Auto and after conclusively pointing it out and backing it up with written evidence to those that ran the site and were directly responsible for the details that it contained - it still remains that way now.

[Steamdrivenandy]

In all such queries as these we need:

 

1. the car's plated Gross Train Weight

2. the car's plated Gross Vehicle Weight

3. the car's towing limit

4. the car's kerbweight (even if it is theoretical)

5. the lowest noseweight limit of the car/towbar/caravan hitch

6. the caravan's plated MTPLM.

7. whether the driver has a B+E driving licence.

 

Once we have that information we can make comment with some semblance of certainty.

 

Incidentally the large difference in towing limit between manual and auto i800's is a well known issue. We can only assume the car has a plasticine automatic gearbox.

[Guest]

How about instead of points scoring your replies actually help the OP with his questions.

 

Same people resurrecting the same arguments that contribute nothing to the topic.

[Steamdrivenandy]

In this particular case we have (in red):

1. the car's plated Gross Train Weight not known so far
2. the car's plated Gross Vehicle Weight 3070kg
3. the car's towing limit 1500kg
4. the car's kerbweight (even if it is theoretical) 2215kg
5. the lowest noseweight limit of the car/towbar/caravan hitch not known so far
6. the caravan's plated MTPLM 1700kg
7. whether the driver has a B+E driving licence Yes

So there are two pieces of informatiom missing before a full response can be provided.

 

However what we can say is that even when the caravan is empty (1550kg) it exceeds the towing weight limit of the car. As the towing limit is not legally binding the OP would not necessarily be breaking the law but it is going against the car manufacturer's recommendation. Obviously any load in the caravan would compound the excess over the Towing Limit.

 

Without the plated GTW figure we cannot fully advise as, depending on that figure, the OP could be at risk of driving illegally.

[Steamdrivenandy]

Hold the front page!

 

The Hyundai website shows a GTW of 4570kg for this model i800 (5370kg for the manual) and a max. noseweight of 100kg.

 

So, if the van was loaded to it's MTPLM of 1700kg there'd be 2870kg available for the car's weight before becoming illegal. Interestingly the Hyundai website says that the car's kerbweight can vary between 2215kg and 2304kg, though provides no explanation for the variance. So taking a cautious approach and using a round figure of 2300kg the balance available for car payload would be 2870kg-2300kg=570kg. Towbar (est. 20kg) = 550kg. Noseweight (est 95kg) 455kg.

 

So a round figure of 450kg of car Payload available before the rig exceeds it's legal Train Weight, however it would already be exceeding it's Towing Limit by 200kg.

[ReggiePerrin]

Usual conflicting advice and in house bickering. My advice would be to go to a caravan dealer and talk to one person with the correct knowledge who will explain things clearly. I understand the figures involved but reading this has got me confused.

Don't be put off. It is not complicated really.

Most dealers would tell you that you can tow a caravan the size of the QEII with your moped if they thought it would secure a sale

[Lutz]

Hold the front page!

 

The Hyundai website shows a GTW of 4570kg for this model i800 (5370kg for the manual) and a max. noseweight of 100kg.

 

So, if the van was loaded to it's MTPLM of 1700kg there'd be 2870kg available for the car's weight before becoming illegal. Interestingly the Hyundai website says that the car's kerbweight can vary between 2215kg and 2304kg, though provides no explanation for the variance. So taking a cautious approach and using a round figure of 2300kg the balance available for car payload would be 2870kg-2300kg=570kg. Towbar (est. 20kg) = 550kg. Noseweight (est 95kg) 455kg.

 

So a round figure of 450kg of car Payload available before the rig exceeds it's legal Train Weight, however it would already be exceeding it's Towing Limit by 200kg.

 

Slight correction here.

 

Going by the figures that you quote, with an MTPLM of 1700kg and your assumed noseweight of 95kg, the towing limit of 1500kg would only be exceeded by 105kg, not 200kg.

[Ern]

This looks like potentially a good outfit. A correct nose weight of say 90Kg on the back of the car would probably be ok. The vehicle should be fine in my opinion.

This looks like potentially a good outfit. A correct nose weight of say 90Kg on the back of the car would probably be ok. The vehicle should be fine in my opinion.

Having read other responses I have realised that the vehicle has a manufacturers towing limit of 1500Kg. The op did say this in his opening post although a typo "row limit" and I missed it. I retract my first post and say that the manufacturers towing limit should not be exceeded. A reduced towing limit for the auto version signals a mechanical limitation in the transmission which if exceeded could result in an expensive failure.

[CommanderDave]

Having read other responses I have realised that the vehicle has a manufacturers towing limit of 1500Kg. The op did say this in his opening post although a typo "row limit" and I missed it. I retract my first post and say that the manufacturers towing limit should not be exceeded. A reduced towing limit for the auto version signals a mechanical limitation in the transmission which if exceeded could result in an expensive failure.

 

 

The vehicle is tested and approved to its maximum train weight for it to move and stop and how the weight is distributed in the outfit would have no effect on the transmission .

 

 

Dave

Edited September 10, 2017 by CommanderDave

[WispMan]

Would I tow a caravan whose MTPLM was above my car's towing limit?

 

Never.

 

You can discuss nose weights and GTWs till you are blue in the face, but I think that as a forum we should advise people to tow at or below their car's tow limit. Based on MTPLM.

[CommanderDave]

Would I tow a caravan whose MTPLM was above my car's towing limit?

Never.

You can discuss nose weights and GTWs till you are blue in the face, but I think that as a forum we should advise people to tow at or below their car's tow limit. Based on MTPLM.

 

It is not a "towing limit" but an towing allowance based on a vehicles Gross vehicle weight and even more car manufacturers use the vehicles towing allowance as part of the vehicles gross vehicles weight .

 

Only few months ago on a practical caravan towcar review they showed a vehicle test that the towing limit was based on a completely empty vehicle and any weight then added was subtracted from the towing allowance .

 

In OP post the vehicle is 2300 kg approx kerbweight towing a 1700 kg caravan so should have no stability issues .

 

Dave

Edited September 10, 2017 by CommanderDave

[Steamdrivenandy]

It is not a "towing limit" but an towing allowance based on a vehicles Gross vehicle weight and even more car manufacturers use the vehicles towing allowance as part of the vehicles gross vehicles weight .

 

Only few months ago on a practical caravan towcar review they showed a vehicle test that the towing limit was based on a completely empty vehicle and any weight then added was subtracted from the towing allowance .

 

In OP post the vehicle is 2300 kg approx kerbweight towing a 1700 kg caravan so should have no stability issues .

 

Dave

 

I suspect, rather like kerbweight, none of us actually know for certain how each individual car manufacturer arrives at and what the actually mean by towing limit. There can be all sorts of different nuances, mainly based around trying to squeeze a quart into a pint pot to meet our own personal objectives. Personally I like to keep a wide margin on such matters, so would take the words and figures as simplistically as possible at their face value.

[Stevan]

Now that I have a choice, and with grandfather rights, I prefer to stay under the towing limit and over 40bhp/tonne by some margin. Without the luxury of choices it is the GTW and licence that matters.

[Lutz]

 

I suspect, rather like kerbweight, none of us actually know for certain how each individual car manufacturer arrives at and what the actually mean by towing limit. There can be all sorts of different nuances, mainly based around trying to squeeze a quart into a pint pot to meet our own personal objectives. Personally I like to keep a wide margin on such matters, so would take the words and figures as simplistically as possible at their face value.

 

Actually the towing limit is determined quite easily. Apart from the legal requirements of being able to restart X-number of times on a 12% gradient we would carry out braking and handling tests with the complete outfit and of course monitor things like engine cooling performance and vehicle structural durability. When everything was acceptable by our standards and we were confident that we can accept product liability we would document that figure as the towing limit.

[Steamdrivenandy]

I can understand the logic of saying that you can ignore the towing limit and utilise payload right up to GVW/GTW for towing but that could lead to an empty car like mine weighing 1285kg kerbweight, with a towing limit of 1200kg, pulling a van weighing 1820kg, as the GTW is 3105kg. I doubt it would, or could happen but that's the logical result. Towing at 240%, you'd need ***** for that.

 

 

Actually the towing limit is determined quite easily. Apart from the legal requirements of being able to restart X-number of times on a 12% gradient we would carry out braking and handling tests with the complete outfit and of course monitor things like engine cooling performance and vehicle structural durability. When everything was acceptable by our standards and we were confident that we can accept product liability we would document that figure as the towing limit.

 

But was that limit with a car at GVW, an empty car, a half loaded car etc, etc - how does a punter know?

[Black Grouse]

Now that I have a choice, and with grandfather rights, I prefer to stay under the towing limit and over 40bhp/tonne by some margin. Without the luxury of choices it is the GTW and licence that matters.

That's the way it should be

[Lutz]

But was that limit with a car at GVW, an empty car, a half loaded car etc, etc - how does a punter know?

 

For most tests the towcars were ballasted to GVW. I'm not sure about the handling tests, though as I was not a part of them.