Jump to content


Photo

Towing


  • Please log in to reply
116 replies to this topic

#1 Peter7740

Peter7740

    New to the board

  • Approved Member
  • 5 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northwest
  • Interests:Family time
  • Towcar:Hyundai I800
  • Caravan:Not purchased yet

Posted 09 September 2017 - 12:29 pm

Hi everyone, I am really just looking for some advise.
Just a little background info to set the scene. My wife an I have three daughters aged 12, 8, 6 and were thinking about getting a caravan , nothing too expensive for a year or so and if we enjoy as a family finances permitting maybe upgrade.
We have looked around and if we are lucky enough to find a 6 berth with fixed bed and fixed bunks (double or triple) so we don't have to keep changing living area into a bedroom that would be our choice.
A few we have seen are twin axle and like the extra space the twin axle tend to bring into the equation when looking.

My problem is the whole weight issues.
Bought a new car Hyundai I800 this year, a large 8 seater, paid the £400 for towbar, got the hitch bike rack, new tent etc, went camping a good few times this year like most years but have now come to the conclusion that maybe we would be more suited to a caravan. My parents just keep a caravan on one site now with their friends so it would be for a few trips there and a good number of local sites at least once a month over the season for a long weekend so space is a major factor.

Because my car is an automatic it has a lower towing capacity than a manual.

The car states kerb weight of 2215kg payload of 855kg gross weight of 3070kg
Maximum row weight of 1500kg (manual is 2300kg) so a gross train weight of 4570kg.

Now all 5 of us say equal 300kg and 150kg of luggage small amount of cutlery etc, maybe 50kg if we get an awning, 75kg full tank .

So 575kg total added to the kerb weight is 2790kg leaving 280kg spare for maximum weight of car.

Caravan E.g.
MTPLM 1700kg (with added loaded weight)
MIRO 1550kg (bare weight)

On a good few sites I've seen a lot of people stating 85% of the car weight is the maximum you should tow

2790kg pulling 1550kg 85% of 2790kg is 2371kg a lot heavier than 1550kg
The above works out at about 55%

If I put no luggage in caravan would I be legally be able to tow it as my car has 280kg spare to reach its max payload?

If this is still not allowed does anyone know of longer caravans on single axle that would have a similar bed set up.

Thanks for your time people, I know you may get bombarded with questions but I am writing this as I have searched endlessly and come up with nothing, so thank you.



#2 shipbroker

shipbroker

    Senior Member with over 5000 posts

  • Approved Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,790 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North Yorkshire
  • Interests:Caravans,Art,
    Golf,Fly Fishing
    Maritime History
  • Towcar:2010 Kia Sorento KX-1 CRDi
  • Caravan:Elddis Affinity 530

Posted 09 September 2017 - 12:43 pm

These are the sort of questions this forum thrives on.. .especially for someone,like you, who has obviously already done a lot of their own homework.

 

Am sure there will be a selection of 'the usual culprits' along soon with the information you need.. .we have a good selection of expertise here,not me but elsewhere!

 

geoff



#3 Paul_B

Paul_B

    Fly Fisherman with over 100,000 casts

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,391 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Yorkshire
  • Interests:Fly Fishing, Keeping Traditional Poultry
    Swilling Grilling & Chilling

Posted 09 September 2017 - 12:52 pm

I think the first thing to ask is what sort of licence do you have



#4 CommanderDave

CommanderDave

    Prestige member with over 10000 posts

  • Approved Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,085 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dorset
  • Interests:Model Eng, DIY, Caravan, Traction Engines
  • Towcar:Isuzu D max
  • Caravan:None

Posted 09 September 2017 - 01:01 pm

First thing to do is load your family in the vehicle fill the tank and take it to a weighbridge to check the kerbweight to give a starting point . The caravan needs to be estimated at 1700 kg as no matter how hard you try to keep weight to a minimum it is very difficult .


4570kg mtw must not be exceeded for the vehicle and subtracting 1700 kg will give a guide of how much you can load in the vehicle .

You will need a B+E licence .


Dave

#5 Ern

Ern

    Over 1000 posts

  • Approved Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,089 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK
  • Interests:Europe travel.
    Living a long time.
  • Towcar:Volvo V70 SEL 2.4D Geartronic
  • Caravan:Swift Challenger

Posted 09 September 2017 - 01:04 pm

This looks like potentially a good outfit. A correct nose weight of say 90Kg on the back of the car would probably be ok. The vehicle should be fine in my opinion.



#6 WispMan

WispMan

    Milky Way

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,424 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cumbria
  • Interests:Caravanning and astronomy.
  • Towcar:Vauxhall Zafira 1.9 CDI Design Diesel 2008
  • Caravan:Bailey Pageant S7 Burgundy

Posted 09 September 2017 - 01:08 pm

The car has a max tow limit of 1500kgs - same as my car. So declared van weight called MTPLM must be below 1500kgs.

The 85% advice from the Caravan Club is not law but purely advice. The 85% relates the van MTPLM to the car's declared kerbweight.
Your cars kerbweight is high so the 1500kg is the limit for that car.

As others have said, what licence do you have?

#7 hp100425ev

hp100425ev

    Over 1000 posts

  • Approved Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,721 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Penwortham, near Preston, Lancashire
  • Towcar:2015 Kia Sorento KX3 Auto
  • Caravan:2017 Lunar Clubman SB

Posted 09 September 2017 - 01:10 pm

If your car has a maximum towing limit of 1500kg, you shouldn't exceed that choose what percentages you care to work out.

#8 Steve05

Steve05

    Over 100 posts

  • Approved Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 153 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midlothian
  • Towcar:Audi SQ5 plus
  • Caravan:Hymer Nova 545 Luxusline

Posted 09 September 2017 - 01:10 pm

I'm no expert but I thought that the maximum permitted plated weight was what you had to go by, ie if the max the car can tow is 1500kgs the caravans MTPLM shouldn't be over that, regardless of whether it's empty?

 

Re the Hyundai, 800kgs seems a huge amount of difference between manual and auto?

 

Kerbweight also already includes fuel and driver.

 

Edit: apologies for duplication, typed same time as above


Edited by Steve05, 09 September 2017 - 01:16 pm.


#9 Peter7740

Peter7740

    New to the board

  • Approved Member
  • 5 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northwest
  • Interests:Family time
  • Towcar:Hyundai I800
  • Caravan:Not purchased yet

Posted 09 September 2017 - 01:16 pm

I think the first thing to ask is what sort of licence do you have


Hi Paul , i passed my test in 94 so eligible for the heavier tow combinations

#10 Lutz

Lutz

    Over 1000 posts

  • Approved Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,480 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hochheim am Main, Germany
  • Towcar:2016 BMW X4 30d
  • Caravan:2008 Dethleffs Beduin 545V

Posted 09 September 2017 - 01:31 pm

I'm no expert but I thought that the maximum permitted plated weight was what you had to go by, ie if the max the car can tow is 1500kgs the caravans MTPLM shouldn't be over that, regardless of whether it's empty?

 

Re the Hyundai, 800kgs seems a huge amount of difference between manual and auto?

 

Kerbweight also already includes fuel and driver.

 

What counts are that the actual weights don't exceed the plated ones. The car could tow a 1700kg caravan so long as it isn't loaded up to more than 1500kg. However, with time one becomes tempted to add this and that to the caravan and before you know it, you've exceeded the limit.

 

By the way, kerbweight does not include the driver although it does include a full fuel tank.


  • ADG likes this

#11 CommanderDave

CommanderDave

    Prestige member with over 10000 posts

  • Approved Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,085 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dorset
  • Interests:Model Eng, DIY, Caravan, Traction Engines
  • Towcar:Isuzu D max
  • Caravan:None

Posted 09 September 2017 - 01:40 pm

A towing allowance is based on a vehicle being loaded to its GVW if the is not loaded to its maximum gross weight the weight can be used in the towing allowance but no plated weights should be exceeded and it is perfectly legal . The vehicle is tested and approved to its MTW .



Dave

Edited by CommanderDave, 09 September 2017 - 01:41 pm.


#12 AWanderingLancastrian

AWanderingLancastrian

    Senior Member with over 5000 posts

  • Caravan Talk Supporter
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,012 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bescar, Scarisbrick, Lancashire.
  • Interests:Cars, photography, cycling & caravanning of course.
  • Towcar:Still deciding petrol again.
  • Caravan:Not at present - still looking.

Posted 09 September 2017 - 01:52 pm

First thing to do is load your family in the vehicle fill the tank and take it to a weighbridge to check the kerbweight to give a starting point . The caravan needs to be estimated at 1700 kg as no matter how hard you try to keep weight to a minimum it is very difficult .


4570kg mtw must not be exceeded for the vehicle and subtracting 1700 kg will give a guide of how much you can load in the vehicle .

You will need a B+E licence .


Dave

 

With respect here Dave. To establish the 'Kerbweight' as defined here in the UK ( written in the pages of Practical Caravan Magazine),firstly the vehicle does not have any one other than a driver in it when weighed and the fuel tank should be 90% full and the vehicle should be carrying a 7kgs of luggage.

The driver weight allowance is 68kgs or the actual weight of the driver is adjusted accordingly to compensate.

 

It should be presented as supplied as supplied and with all personal effects removed.

The definition according to the known UK understanding is :---

 

The weight of the vehicle as it left the manufacturer with all oils and fluids to function safely and correctly.

A 90% full fuel tank.

A 68kg driver.

7kg of luggage.

 

The most accurate weighbridge/Beam is the VOSA/DVSA  Dynamic Axle Weighbridge/Beam.

The manufacturer/installer and service company can be found at Picow Farm Road,Runcorn,Cheshire.

 

Peter 7740 does not clarify where in the North West he lives but a trip to Runcorn would give him perfect peace of mind in knowing exactly what he is starting with.

 

Likewise once purchased the caravan should be weighed as originally manufactured/supplied to establish the accuracy of the MiRO.

 

Those are the two stating points for every novice/newbie caravanner having firstly established exactly what his/her driving licence entitles them to drive/tow.

 

The details for the weighbridge manufacturer are as follows :---

 

Axle Weight Technology Limited T/A Axtec

 

 Picow Farm Rd, Runcorn WA7 4UN


  • andrew2762 likes this

#13 CommanderDave

CommanderDave

    Prestige member with over 10000 posts

  • Approved Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,085 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dorset
  • Interests:Model Eng, DIY, Caravan, Traction Engines
  • Towcar:Isuzu D max
  • Caravan:None

Posted 09 September 2017 - 02:07 pm

We all know kerbweights are not accurate and even car manufacturers can't agree how they are calculated .

If OP wants to take 200 kg from the actual GVW then he needs to check the vehicles weight to check if he has the allowance in the payload to do it . So you need to check the initial weight with the family then once you have a datum you can start to add the weight of awnings and other kit .

Before rushing out to buy the caravan you need to check before you get a suprise in the vehicle kerbweight is bigger than estimated .


Dave

Edited by CommanderDave, 09 September 2017 - 02:08 pm.


#14 Lutz

Lutz

    Over 1000 posts

  • Approved Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,480 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hochheim am Main, Germany
  • Towcar:2016 BMW X4 30d
  • Caravan:2008 Dethleffs Beduin 545V

Posted 09 September 2017 - 02:10 pm

 

 

With respect here Dave. To establish the 'Kerbweight' as defined here in the UK ( written in the pages of Practical Caravan Magazine),firstly the vehicle does not have any one other than a driver in it when weighed and the fuel tank should be 90% full and the vehicle should be carrying a 7kgs of luggage.

The driver weight allowance is 68kgs or the actual weight of the driver is adjusted accordingly to compensate.

 

It should be presented as supplied as supplied and with all personal effects removed.

The definition according to the known UK understanding is :---

 

The weight of the vehicle as it left the manufacturer with all oils and fluids to function safely and correctly.

A 90% full fuel tank.

A 68kg driver.

7kg of luggage.

 

Kerbweight, as defined in UK legislation, includes a full fuel tank, not 90% full, and no driver.


Edited by Lutz, 09 September 2017 - 02:13 pm.


#15 macafee2

macafee2

    Over 500 posts

  • Approved Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 624 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Interests:Caravanning

Posted 09 September 2017 - 02:20 pm

what weight are you allowed on the tow ball? Your nose weight of the caravan should not exceed that. The 1500kg's you mention is "horizontal pulling weight" you now need the "vertical weight" that's going onto the tow bar

 

macafee2



#16 AWanderingLancastrian

AWanderingLancastrian

    Senior Member with over 5000 posts

  • Caravan Talk Supporter
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,012 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bescar, Scarisbrick, Lancashire.
  • Interests:Cars, photography, cycling & caravanning of course.
  • Towcar:Still deciding petrol again.
  • Caravan:Not at present - still looking.

Posted 09 September 2017 - 02:54 pm

 

Kerbweight, as defined in UK legislation, includes a full fuel tank, not 90% full, and no driver.

 

Hi Lutz. I am actually well aware of what the old legislation says - indeed it has been changed/redefined that many times since I first got my driving license in 1964 I have lost count but I did not quote legislation I made mention of the detail as broadly worded in Practical Caravan Magazine and actually quotes the EU Directive 95/48/EC that has so many times been denied since appearing for a very very brief period on the internet many years back - not least of all by you.

It was in the section that was printed on Blue Paper - I think that it was identified as either Technical or Need to know pages.


  • andrew2762 likes this

#17 KNARF

KNARF

    Over 1000 posts

  • Approved Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,776 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 09 September 2017 - 03:04 pm

I can see this topic going the same way as this one went,six pages and no-one any the wiser!

http://www.caravanta...-of-kerbweight/

knarf


  • R&B, Northerngirl1 and banjokat like this

#18 Lutz

Lutz

    Over 1000 posts

  • Approved Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,480 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hochheim am Main, Germany
  • Towcar:2016 BMW X4 30d
  • Caravan:2008 Dethleffs Beduin 545V

Posted 09 September 2017 - 03:37 pm

 

Hi Lutz. I am actually well aware of what the old legislation says - indeed it has been changed/redefined that many times since I first got my driving license in 1964 I have lost count but I did not quote legislation I made mention of the detail as broadly worded in Practical Caravan Magazine and actually quotes the EU Directive 95/48/EC that has so many times been denied since appearing for a very very brief period on the internet many years back - not least of all by you.

It was in the section that was printed on Blue Paper - I think that it was identified as either Technical or Need to know pages.

 

The EU Directive 95/48/EC that Practical Caravan quotes doesn't define kerbweight. It doesn't even mention the word kerbweight. Actually, 95/48/EC has since been replaced by 1230/2012/EU and that doesn't mention kerbweight either.

 

Kerbweight is defined in The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 and only there. Except for subsequent amendments there is nothing that says these regulations are no longer valid.


Edited by Lutz, 09 September 2017 - 03:40 pm.


#19 R&B

R&B

    Over 50 posts

  • Approved Member
  • PipPip
  • 70 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cardiff
  • Towcar:Audi SQ5
  • Caravan:Glossop Festival 545(Coachman)

Posted 09 September 2017 - 03:43 pm

Usual conflicting advice and in house bickering.My advice would be to go to a caravan dealer and talk to one person with the correct knowledge who will explain things clearly.I understand the figures involved but reading this has got me confused.

Don't be put off.It is not complicated really.


  • Northerngirl1 likes this

#20 AWanderingLancastrian

AWanderingLancastrian

    Senior Member with over 5000 posts

  • Caravan Talk Supporter
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,012 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bescar, Scarisbrick, Lancashire.
  • Interests:Cars, photography, cycling & caravanning of course.
  • Towcar:Still deciding petrol again.
  • Caravan:Not at present - still looking.

Posted 09 September 2017 - 03:46 pm

I'm no expert but I thought that the maximum permitted plated weight was what you had to go by, ie if the max the car can tow is 1500kgs the caravans MTPLM shouldn't be over that, regardless of whether it's empty?

 

Re the Hyundai, 800kgs seems a huge amount of difference between manual and auto?

 

Kerbweight also already includes fuel and driver.

 

Edit: apologies for duplication, typed same time as above

 

Hi Steve. Several years ago I towed an Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco with and MTPLM of 1750kgs with a 1997 Volvo V70 T5 CD Automatic.

The V70 T5 had a maximum braked towing limit of 1600kgs and the SuperSirocco had a proven MiRO of 1440kgs albeit the brochure weight was listed as 1426kgs. Hence the importance of knowing the two starting points as mentioned in para 7 of my post # 12

 

There were many clever-sods that were telling me that I could not tow the SuperSirocco and that it was illegal;including Know-all - No Nothing caravan salesmen.

 

I used to keep a hand written inventory of everything that went on or in my outfit - adjustments to the figures were made as the removable/changeable items were moved about depending upon the requirements of the trips.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users