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Difference Apr Rate That Different Dealers Charge


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#1 Sunseaker

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 10:44 am

Looking for my first van and going to use finance. Went to Salop Leisure last weekend, the best they could do on a new caravan was 11.9 Apr. But on Spinney website they can do it for 5.9 Apr both with black horse finance. Makes you laugh, anyone found any better Apr rates from caravan dealers in the north west Cheshire area. Has anyone bought a new caravan on pcp from black horse finance,

Any info/advice would be great.

#2 Ern

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 10:56 am

Why not try your bank first. Most do a preferential rate for their current account customers. In my case (Nationwide) its 3.4%.

I've seen better than that too. Sainsburys recently were around 3.0%.



#3 Durbanite

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 02:05 pm

Why not try your bank first. Most do a preferential rate for their current account customers. In my case (Nationwide) its 3.4%.

I've seen better than that too. Sainsburys recently were around 3.0%.

The biggest problem with taking a loan for a caravan is that if you have issues with it and reject it, will you get a full refund as you will be seriously out of pocket.  In addition you do not have the clout of the finance house to put pressure on the dealership to resolve any issues.  Got the t shirt!



#4 Ern

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 06:43 pm

The biggest problem with taking a loan for a caravan is that if you have issues with it and reject it, will you get a full refund as you will be seriously out of pocket.  In addition you do not have the clout of the finance house to put pressure on the dealership to resolve any issues.  Got the t shirt!


Yes that a fair point. So, assuming I pay for the caravan by credit card I get the full clout of the the credit card company. If I did this and then cleared the balance by fixed instruction as I do each month, I would be ok. This is probably why when I paid a deposit on the last caravan the dealer advised they would not accept payment of the balance by credit card. I paid it by debit card. Crafty b.. ...s eh? Why doesn't the debit card company provide the same protection as the credit card company? (In my case it's the same company). Am I missing something?

Edited by Ern, 27 August 2017 - 06:45 pm.


#5 Jiffy176

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 09:13 pm

Looking for my first van and going to use finance. Went to Salop Leisure last weekend, the best they could do on a new caravan was 11.9 Apr. But on Spinney website they can do it for 5.9 Apr both with black horse finance. Makes you laugh, anyone found any better Apr rates from caravan dealers in the north west Cheshire area. Has anyone bought a new caravan on pcp from black horse finance,

Any info/advice would be great.


As others have said, it is a good way to look after your money buying on finance not using the bank. If you don't choose finance then pay a deposit on a credit card.

#6 Steamdrivenandy

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 07:16 am

Yes that a fair point. So, assuming I pay for the caravan by credit card I get the full clout of the the credit card company. If I did this and then cleared the balance by fixed instruction as I do each month, I would be ok. This is probably why when I paid a deposit on the last caravan the dealer advised they would not accept payment of the balance by credit card. I paid it by debit card. Crafty b.....s eh? Why doesn't the debit card company provide the same protection as the credit card company? (In my case it's the same company). Am I missing something?

Credit cards are what is known in the Consumer Credit Act as 'credit instruments' and the full protection of that Act applies to items purchased using such a card. In effect the card issuer becomes jointly and severally liable with the merchant/retailer. So if the retailer goes bust or there's a CRA issue with the van the card company can be involved. The same rules apply to HP, PCP or any other credit instrument. The credit card qualifies because you don't settle the debt immediately and therefore you have taken credit, even if you settle upon receipt of statement.

Credit cards first appeared in the mid '70's and the CCA came along a few years later.

The debit card is a different animal as the money is removed direct from your current account, with no credit period involved. It is, in effect, a direct replacement for a cheque. The debit card relies on payment terminal technology that first started appearing in the late '80's as it was no use launching earlier as you'd have just swapped a cheque for a voucher, which was the standard form of card payment transmission before EFTPOS (electronic funds at point if sale) arrived.

As a direct cheque replacement debit card transaction processing was charged to merchants at similar rates to cheques i.e at pence per transaction, whatever the value, whilst credit cards were charged at a % of the value of the transaction. So, typically, a £5 credit card transaction cost a merchant 10p, but a £5,000 transaction cost them £100. This is most likely the reason that a dealer won't accept a credit card as payment for a large balance.

Their alternative is to either absorb the credit card charge in their pricing or surcharge the cardholder. From the inception of cards 'til the mid '90's surcharging was banned under the merchant's agreement with their card acquirer (processing company). Under pressure from some big retailers the government agreed surcharging could go ahead and, rather strangely, those same retailers decided not to surcharge as they realised competition would wipe them out. However certain merchant niches started exploiting the relaxation, most notably in the travel area, with some airlines making card surcharges way above the level of costs they were being charged. In effect they probably make more profit from card surcharging than from their core operation and more than any of the companies involved in processing the transactions. A cash cow to be milked.

Things have got so bad that the government announced, several months ago, that they will be legislating to ban surcharging. The wheel has turned full circle.

#7 jetA1

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 07:28 am

Just checking . ... is it not the case that the entire transaction has protection even if only a deposit (above the £100? qualifying limit) is paid by credit card and the remainder by other means? I'm sure I've heard this mentioned in relation to paying for holidays but would presume it is not product specific. 



#8 Ern

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 07:48 am

Just checking . .. . is it not the case that the entire transaction has protection even if only a deposit (above the £100? qualifying limit) is paid by credit card and the remainder by other means? I'm sure I've heard this mentioned in relation to paying for holidays but would presume it is not product specific. 

I thought that too and I think I learned it here. That was the reason I paid a £1000 deposit by CC with the order for our last new caravan. I think there is a difference in the extent to which dealers are prepared to dictate terms when they are selling the caravan to when they are handing over the caravan, but that's another matter.



#9 Steamdrivenandy

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 08:11 am

Just checking .... is it not the case that the entire transaction has protection even if only a deposit (above the £100? qualifying limit) is paid by credit card and the remainder by other means? I'm sure I've heard this mentioned in relation to paying for holidays but would presume it is not product specific. 

 

Absolutely correct.

 

One rider to my earlier piece is that what I outlined is the legal position within the UK. Within the payment card industry itself there are rules and regs that govern the way the system operates and these are known as 'cardplan rules' think VISA and Mastercard. These rules apply nationally and internationally, covering a massive body of operational detail.

 

In general the rules applying to the situations we've been talking about mimic the requirements of UK legislation and the means by which they are administered are via what's termed the 'chargeback' system. 

 

Say you rejected a van but the dealer wouldn't accept rejection. In simple terms the card issuer could chargeback the transaction merchant's card acquirer who processed the transaction into the system. It's done this way because there are tens of thousands of card issuers globally and they have no contractual agreement with individual merchants. The card acquirer does have a contract with the merchant and on receipt of a chargeback they have to decide whether to accept it or reject it if there's wiggle room under the rules. If they accept it they then have to decide whether to chargeback the merchant, or absorb the cost themselves. Obviously if the merchant has gone bust the cost has to be borne by the acquirer. 

 

The reason I mention this is that card scheme chargeback rules sometimes also apply to debit card transactions and therefore there's the possibilty that whilst a debit card transaction isn't covered by the CCA, it may be covered by card scheme chargeback rules. 

 

Having left the industry in '96 and never having to be involved in the cardholder side of debit cards I'm afraid I can't be more specific than that.



#10 happynomad

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 08:20 am

The biggest problem with taking a loan for a caravan is that if you have issues with it and reject it, will you get a full refund as you will be seriously out of pocket.

GAP insurance, hugely overpriced by dealers but available very much more reasonably directly from insurance companies, will cover the difference between market value and invoice value.

Edited to add.. .

Just read what you said again.. . presumably, if the van was rejected and a full refund obtained, the buyer would be likely to direct that refund into the purchase of a similar van, probably at a similar overall cost?

Edited by happynomad, 28 August 2017 - 08:28 am.


#11 Black Grouse

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 08:23 am

GAP insurance, hugely overpriced by dealers but available very much more reasonably directly from insurance companies, will cover the difference between market value and invoice value.

Dealer markup can be 2-300% and invariably includes the first year which many people don't need if their car/caravan insurance covers new-for-old - so for caravans on CC/CMC insurance GAP simply isn't needed as it's automatically new-for-old in the first 5 years.



#12 Durbanite

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 09:27 am

GAP insurance, hugely overpriced by dealers but available very much more reasonably directly from insurance companies, will cover the difference between market value and invoice value.

Edited to add.. .

Just read what you said again.. . presumably, if the van was rejected and a full refund obtained, the buyer would be likely to direct that refund into the purchase of a similar van, probably at a similar overall cost?

Missed out a word like "not" get a full refund and be seriously out of pocket.


Just checking . .. . is it not the case that the entire transaction has protection even if only a deposit (above the £100? qualifying limit) is paid by credit card and the remainder by other means? I'm sure I've heard this mentioned in relation to paying for holidays but would presume it is not product specific. 

I think the deposit only needs to be £1 as long as the item or goods are over £100 in value however if the item or goods cost more than £30K then Section 75 does not apply.  I am not sure if Section 75(A) covers goods with a value between £30K and £60K.



#13 Grandpa Steve

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:32 am

GAP insurance, hugely overpriced by dealers but available very much more reasonably directly from insurance companies, will cover the difference between market value and invoice value.
Edited to add...
Just read what you said again... presumably, if the van was rejected and a full refund obtained, the buyer would be likely to direct that refund into the purchase of a similar van, probably at a similar overall cost?

But GAP Insurance only comes in to play if you make a claim against your caravan insurance for total loss or theft of your caravan, it does not apply if you reject it due to merchandise quality issues.

#14 Steamdrivenandy

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 11:54 am

I don't see why a refund should not have an allowance removed for the period you enjoyed the van before rejecting it. After all, you would have had some value from it, though it shouldn't be the equivalent of between trade price and initial purchase, but a more complicated calculation, probably based around the two retail values and the period of 'happy' ownership. It needs to ensure there was no betterment in the amount agreed and that relatively small difference could be made up to purchase a new replacement, if that's what you want. Obviously if the van is rejected upon collection and without being used, no adjustment would be appropriate.

#15 happynomad

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 12:24 pm

But GAP Insurance only comes in to play if you make a claim against your caravan insurance for total loss or theft of your caravan, it does not apply if you reject it due to merchandise quality issues.

Indeed.. . point taken.  Having realised I'd answered a question that hadn't actually been asked, I went back and edited / added to that post a more relevant comment in respect of a refund obtained following a rejection of a caravan.



#16 Durbanite

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 12:51 pm

I don't see why a refund should not have an allowance removed for the period you enjoyed the van before rejecting it. After all, you would have had some value from it, though it shouldn't be the equivalent of between trade price and initial purchase, but a more complicated calculation, probably based around the two retail values and the period of 'happy' ownership. It needs to ensure there was no betterment in the amount agreed and that relatively small difference could be made up to purchase a new replacement, if that's what you want. Obviously if the van is rejected upon collection and without being used, no adjustment would be appropriate.

This does happen however what if it takes the dealer nearly a year to try and sort out the problems which eventually makes the customer reject the caravan?  Should the customer be penalised for being very patient with the dealer?  You may have used the caravan, but did the consumer really enjoy it.  For example 1st two weeks away, caravan floods, next holiday mattress goes faulty, following holiday seat goes faulty.  Hardly enjoyable when compounded with serious faults like cracked front and rear panels which take nearly a year to resolve only for the front panel to crack again a month after it was replaced.  I got a gigantic T shirt!  :(



#17 Ern

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 01:07 pm

Mesmerising! Going back to the op, could he use his credit card for the deposit and take a loan from his bank to pay the remainder, and have full rights under the protection of the credit card rules? The saving of interest would be considerable.

#18 Steamdrivenandy

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 01:42 pm

This does happen however what if it takes the dealer nearly a year to try and sort out the problems which eventually makes the customer reject the caravan?  Should the customer be penalised for being very patient with the dealer?  You may have used the caravan, but did the consumer really enjoy it.  For example 1st two weeks away, caravan floods, next holiday mattress goes faulty, following holiday seat goes faulty.  Hardly enjoyable when compounded with serious faults like cracked front and rear panels which take nearly a year to resolve only for the front panel to crack again a month after it was replaced.  I got a gigantic T shirt!  :(


That's what I meant by the amount needing to be agreed. If you cannot agree an equitable amount then a judge will. However neither party should have bettered themselves in the process, though if the dealer is shown to be unreasonably obstinate then the judge may award costs against them and vice versa.

#19 Durbanite

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 01:46 pm

That's what I meant by the amount needing to be agreed. If you cannot agree an equitable amount then a judge will. However neither party should have bettered themselves in the process, though if the dealer is shown to be unreasonably obstinate then the judge may award costs against them and vice versa.

In our case they want to take 11 month's payments on a caravan that was rejected 11 months after purchase so hardly fair considering what we have had to go through.  Even more annoying is that we paid a bit extra every month amounting to £872 over the 11 months to keep interest charges down and they want to keep that also!



#20 Steamdrivenandy

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 03:00 pm

In our case they want to take 11 month's payments on a caravan that was rejected 11 months after purchase so hardly fair considering what we have had to go through.  Even more annoying is that we paid a bit extra every month amounting to £872 over the 11 months to keep interest charges down and they want to keep that also!

 

Well if you didn't voice any disatisfaction 'til you'd had the van 11 months then their position is probably right, although keeping the over payment seems a tad dubious.

 

What it sounds like they're doing is applying the formula for ending a contract early, which is a totally different situation to rejecting the van under CRA.

 

When I worked for Black Horse Vehicle Management we had many customers who wanted to end their contracts early but were staggered at the settlement figure we needed. They didn't seem to or want to understand that a vehicle depreciates massively in the first year but their payments equalise that cost over 3 years. So if the car came back early their payments wouldn't have covered the hit we took at auction and we had to get that back from the customer.  






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